Stressed A. Borellii sp. Opal male

[Uphoria]

About 3 weeks ago I got a solo male A. Borellii sp. Opal. I had him in a QT tank with other fish while I finished building an upgraded 32 gallon tank for my community for 1 week. During this time he was colored up and seemed great. Once I moved them all to the new tank, he has had no color and has significant dark vertical stripes.

He swims around fine, acts normal and curious. He is eating regularly and there has been no issues I've witnessed getting along with other fish. The tank has natural sand and dark rounded pebbles, lots of driftwood with multiple caves and hiding spots. It's moderately planted with Anubias and Crypts with terrestrial plants growing out the top, with their extensive root systems filling a good 1/4 of the left side of the tank along with floating Frogbit covering about 1/3 of surface currently. It also has a Catappa Leaf and Alder cone to add tannins, between these and the driftwood it is decently staining the water. Lighting is also low due to not having strong lights and the floating plants and dark water blocking a lot of it.

Tank mates include 1 male and 2 female Honey Gourami, 6 Ember Tetras and 6 Pygmy Corydoras, a handful of Blue Jelly Neos and a Ramshorn snail. They basically all ignore each other and don't seem to mind at all when anyone else is around them aside from the Honey interacting with each other and the light shoaling of the little guys.

Temp 76-79F. Ph is around 6.7 with Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 and Nitrate nearly 0 but am regularly dosing Flourish. Since most media was transferred from the previous tank I had, I didn't wait to cycle since I moved it over but did dose Stability daily for the first week to help with the adjustment to the larger tank. I have tested water daily and seen no trace of any Ammonia or Nitrite. I've done one water change with the next one happening tomorrow.

After 2 weeks in the new tank I thought he would have settled by now. Everyone else seems very happy and enjoying the setup. I created it specifically intending to have components that each species likes so they would feel comfortable. A couple days ago I started dosing StressGuard to try to help him out but haven't seen a difference yet. I'm just not sure what else to do to help him.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Welcome to Apistogramma.com

The tank has natural sand and dark rounded pebbles, lots of driftwood with multiple caves and hiding
spots. It's moderately planted with Anubias and Crypts with terrestrial plants growing out the top, with their extensive root systems filling a good 1/4 of the left side of the tank along with floating Frogbit covering about 1/3 of surface currently. It also has a Catappa Leaf and Alder cone to add tannins, between these and the driftwood it is decently staining the water.

That should be fine, but can we have a picture?

Ph is around 6.7 with Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 and Nitrate nearly 0 but am regularly dosing Flourish. Since most media was transferred from the previous tank I had, I didn't wait to cycle since I moved it over but did dose Stability daily for the first week to help with the adjustment to the larger tank. I have tested water daily and seen no trace of any Ammonia or Nitrite.

You will need to <"feed the plants"> at some point, Seachem are, at best, disingenuous about what their products contain and their usefulness.

It may still be a water quality issue. Personally I tend not to make decisions made on test kit results, this isn't because water parameters aren't important, it is just that compounds like nitrate (NO3-) are much more difficult to test for than most aquarium based literature acknowledges.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

And stop using Stressguard.That stuff has no actual effect besides giving a naive fishkeeper the feeling of doing something while filling the manufacturer's pockets.

Otherwise you might want to fill out the emergency template (pinned in the Health subforum) to close the gaps in your description of the case. Please add some pictures and abstain from any speculations, that will only lead to biased answers.

 

[Uphoria]

Hi all,
Welcome to Apistogramma.com

That should be fine, but can we have a picture?

You will need to <"feed the plants"> at some point, Seachem are, at best, disingenuous about what their products contain and their usefulness.

It may still be a water quality issue. Personally I tend not to make decisions made on test kit results, this isn't because water parameters aren't important, it is just that compounds like nitrate (NO3-) are much more difficult to test for than most aquarium based literature acknowledges.

cheers Darrel

I will upload a picture shortly.

I am a little confused by your input... basically you're saying that the Flourish isn't actually doing anything and the test kits are pointless? Haha slightly exaggerating yes, but I just thought that Seachem was actually one of the top brands and that testing your water was a vital part of maintaining a healthy system.

What kind of water quality issue might it be and how would I know if I'm not using the test? What do you suggest I use or do instead?

 

[Uphoria]

And stop using Stressguard.That stuff has no actual effect besides giving a naive fishkeeper the feeling of doing something while filling the manufacturer's pockets.

Otherwise you might want to fill out the emergency template (pinned in the Health subforum) to close the gaps in your description of the case. Please add some pictures and abstain from any speculations, that will only lead to biased answers.

I will be honest that the Stressguard was a bit of a "desperate" buy because I was worried and felt like I was doing everything else right. I felt a little silly but got the smallest bottle with the "it can't hurt" mentallity.

I will get pictures up and find the template you're referring to.

 

[Apistonaut]

He may simply not have a piece of territory, or even want one without a female. I wouldn't necessarily suggest a female since I understand he is more of a centerpiece. I don't think a community tank is advisable to pair your Apistogramma if you don't intend to breed, nor do you get any large yield of fry due to predation.

I doubt it's a matter of TDS, etc. I'm sure it's higher if you are successfully keeping the neos.

Is your sand pretty white/blonde? The little light you have may still be encouraging him to soften up over the bright sand. The only males that I've had that keep their color solo in brighter conditions are your typical color-bred Apistos. In pairs, I've gotten away with brighter lighting while my plants were initially growing and the male is more motivated towards the female than he is stressed. They even bred rather quickly.

 

[Apistonaut]

I will upload a picture shortly.

I am a little confused by your input... basically you're saying that the Flourish isn't actually doing anything and the test kits are pointless? Haha slightly exaggerating yes, but I just thought that Seachem was actually one of the top brands and that testing your water was a vital part of maintaining a healthy system.

What kind of water quality issue might it be and how would I know if I'm not using the test? What do you suggest I use or do instead?

Seachem Flourish is a legitimate product, but dosing fertilizer might not be as necessary, as most are led to believe, unless your plants are INCREDIBLY dense and your aquasoil has burned out over a year.

 

[Uphoria]

Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?)
A. Borellii Opal male age unknown, had him 3 weeks

What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies?
No longer colored up and has vertical stripes.

How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?)
2 weeks

What's the full stocking list?
1 Apisto, 3 Honey Gourami, 6 Ember Tetras, 6 Pygmy Cory, Neo shrimp and ramshorn snail

Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish?
No

What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!)
30in L, 12.5in W, 18.5 in T

How long is the tank running?
About 2 weeks. Filter, plants, and half the driftwood were cycled in old tank for 5 months.

Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration?
This is a new tank to all the fish. Apisto was fine in quarantine tank for 1 week before moving in.

What food are the fish fed? How much, how often?
Once a day with 1 fasting day a week. Varied diet of Hikari Micropellets, Bug Bites Flakes, Bug Bites Bottomfeeders sinking pellets, frozen brine shrimp, frozen spirulina brine shrimp, frozen daphnia, frozen bloodworms, live daphnia, live microworms, shrimp treat sticks. He might not be eating all of these things but that's everything that goes in the tank at some point.

What is the temperature?
76-79F

What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH: 6.7
GH:
KH:
EC/TDS:
NO3: 0
NO2: 0
NH3/4:

What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?)
API Master liquid

Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers)
Prime, Flourish, catappa leaf, alder cone, Stability was used the first week.

What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?)
Sponge

What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)
Weekly 20%-30% ish waterchange. Light vacuum of sand to keep it cleaner looking. Use sponge to wipe top water surface of glass. Magnet glass cleaner wiped as needed.

Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...)
No

Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank?
No

Are there any unknown animals in the tank?
No

What has been done already? (Timeline!)
I kept lights off aside from feeding for the first week. Gave space to tank and didn't mess with it after adding fish until the first water change after one week. I will do another water change today.

If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!)
Stressguard for the last 3 days.

Please provide pictures/videos of the fish AND tank in question!

 

[MacZ]

will be honest that the Stressguard was a bit of a "desperate" buy because I was worried and felt like I was doing everything else right. I felt a little silly but got the smallest bottle with the "it can't hurt" mentallity.

It's fine, just stop using it, longterm use can be cancerogenous. We have similar go-tos in my country, sadly those can do more harm than this stuff. And about Seachem... there is a reason most of their products don't have a sales permit in the EU. Only their basic fertilizers, some of their equipment and prime are going over the counter here. Their med series and several other things don't have approval here.

First of all, good decision to only get one Apistogramma. A "pair" (short version: they don't form permanent pairs) with a brooding female could do serious disturbance. You also did a perfect tank switch using

Some things you could improve on:
- stop feeding bloodworms, there is a phenomenon we don't really understand yet, because nobody does serious research on it, that links deaths directly to bloodworms. Some things have been ruled out, but some are still in the game.
- Add more humic substances and leaf litter. And once the leaves break down to mulm, leaf that mulm. You don't have to remove it all. Mulm from botanicals is a great starter for a bioactive layer on the substrate, that can take care of a lot of waste. Here's some footage from my tank, just to show what a healthy system needs to handle waste.
- Hence: Stop vacuuming the sand except it is obvious feces/food leftovers.

Now while we neither have a picture of the fish nor the tank and I can only speculate further... I think leaving the lights off for some days might have done some harm in terms of acclimation. Might be part of the explanation what's happening. The second part might be the fact that it's a new tank. Dwarf cichlids in newly setup tanks can be squeamish. Sadly stress is a very big factor in these fish falling ill, so this is generally a tiny bit worrying.
Anyhow on the other hand: Two weeks are the timeframe where I deem basic stress signs like glasssurfing normal and only after 3-4 weeks this would be really worrying me.

 

[Uphoria]

Here’s some pictures

 

[Uphoria]

It's fine, just stop using it, longterm use can be cancerogenous. We have similar go-tos in my country, sadly those can do more harm than this stuff. And about Seachem... there is a reason most of their products don't have a sales permit in the EU. Only their basic fertilizers, some of their equipment and prime are going over the counter here. Their med series and several other things don't have approval here.

First of all, good decision to only get one Apistogramma. A "pair" (short version: they don't form permanent pairs) with a brooding female could do serious disturbance. You also did a perfect tank switch using

Some things you could improve on:
- stop feeding bloodworms, there is a phenomenon we don't really understand yet, because nobody does serious research on it, that links deaths directly to bloodworms. Some things have been ruled out, but some are still in the game.
- Add more humic substances and leaf litter. And once the leaves break down to mulm, leaf that mulm. You don't have to remove it all. Mulm from botanicals is a great starter for a bioactive layer on the substrate, that can take care of a lot of waste. Here's some footage from my tank, just to show what a healthy system needs to handle waste.
- Hence: Stop vacuuming the sand except it is obvious feces/food leftovers.

Now while we neither have a picture of the fish nor the tank and I can only speculate further... I think leaving the lights off for some days might have done some harm in terms of acclimation. Might be part of the explanation what's happening. The second part might be the fact that it's a new tank. Dwarf cichlids in newly setup tanks can be squeamish. Sadly stress is a very big factor in these fish falling ill, so this is generally a tiny bit worrying.
Anyhow on the other hand: Two weeks are the timeframe where I deem basic stress signs like glasssurfing normal and only after 3-4 weeks this would be really worrying me.

Thank you for the detailed breakdown of these things. I chose just the single male because I didn't want to deal with the potential stress of a pair not working out and I didn't want a female claiming a cave and stressing out other fish.

I did actually learn about the bloodworm thing shortly after getting him so I have only fed him those a couple of times in the beginning but he hasn't had them since I learned that. I just wanted to add it to the list for transparency that he has had some. I'm trying to find a source of white worms instead but all I found was the microworms so far but will mostly be for my Medaka fry as this tank doesn't seem to interested in them since they are so small.

I haven't vacuumed anything but the very front where the sand but have left everything else alone so it can create a healthy bit of mulm. I will look into adding more leaf litter. I initially had a second catappa leaf in but the water turned so black that I couldn't see anything so I removed it when I did the first water change. However, there is new driftwood that was soaked but not boiled so maybe that was also the culprit for the dark water. I don't mind the brown water but just don't want it so black that I can't enjoy watching the fish. Is there a good kind of leaf litter that won't add so many dark tannins?

I was specifically told to leave the lights off to lower stress of the fish so I hope that wasn't counterproductive. I was under the impression that they were sensitive to the parameters of a new tank due to fluctuations of the cycle getting established so by transferring the cycle over and dosing Stability I was avoiding this issue but maybe I misunderstood the reasoning it sounds like?

He glass surfed for just a couple days along with the other small fish but that subsided after not too long. Other than his lack of color and dramatic vertical lines (in the pictures they aren't too bad but often they are pretty solid black), he seems to be behaving fairly normal? But he is my first Apisto so I'm not confident. He was just so pretty and blue in the quarantine tank so it is just jarring to see him like this now.

 

[Apistonaut]

From the lighting, I'd have to say he doesn't look particularly unhappy. Do you feel your blackwater and lower lighting might not be projecting his livery outside of the tank well? Maybe crank the light for a moment and see. His fin color looks good, but the lighting is difficult to make out the blues. His lateral line and vertical lines indicate he's feeling froggy and confident, for the most part. I don't see a source of agitation unless he's been sparring with your gouramis.

I don't think Apistogramma can mute their blues, which makes up the long flank of A. Borelliis. Typically they have more response in the reds, browns and yellows, things that are amplified by carotenoids. If you are not seeing the blue, it could just be the spectrum of light available in the tank with lots of tannins.

Just a thought.

 

[Uphoria]

From the lighting, I'd have to say he doesn't look particularly unhappy. Do you feel your blackwater and lower lighting might not be projecting his livery outside of the tank well? Maybe crank the light for a moment and see. His fin color looks good, but the lighting is difficult to make out the blues. His lateral line and vertical lines indicate he's feeling froggy and confident, for the most part. I don't see a source of agitation unless he's been sparring with your gouramis.

I don't think Apistogramma can mute their blues, which makes up the long flank of A. Borelliis. Typically they have more response in the reds, browns and yellows, things that are amplified by carotenoids. If you are not seeing the blue, it could just be the spectrum of light available in the tank with lots of tannins.

Just a thought.

My goodness it’s amazing how much misinformation there is out there! I was told the vertical lines mean he’s stressed and unhappy.
You’re saying that it’s not a bad thing to have the vertical lines?

That’s a good theory about the lighting. But it’s not just the picture capturing it badly, there really isn’t any blue to his body now. When I got him he was stunningly blue. I am going to be getting a better light soon but he doesn’t change even when he’s up higher in the tank in direct light so I’m not sure.

 

[Apistonaut]

My goodness it’s amazing how much misinformation there is out there! I was told the vertical lines mean he’s stressed and unhappy.
You’re saying that it’s not a bad thing to have the vertical lines?

That’s a good theory about the lighting. But it’s not just the picture capturing it badly, there really isn’t any blue to his body now. When I got him he was stunningly blue. I am going to be getting a better light soon but he doesn’t change even when he’s up higher in the tank in direct light so I’m not sure.

If you found that here from someone experienced, then that certainly may mean stressed. Many types of Apistogramma will wear vertical lines, females included, when they are breeding and/or confident in territory. It may very among the small cichlids.

 

[Uphoria]

If you found that here from someone experienced, then that certainly may mean stressed. Many types of Apistogramma will wear vertical lines, females included, when they are breeding and/or confident in territory. It may very among the small cichlids.

No I don't think I got that information from here, but I don't recall where I first heard it. I will do a bit more digging into that specifically to verify. I will feel a bit silly if I made all the fuss when really he was perfectly content haha.

However, it would be really nice to figure out how to have his blue come back through.

 

[Apistonaut]

No I don't think I got that information from here, but I don't recall where I first heard it. I will do a bit more digging into that specifically to verify. I will feel a bit silly if I made all the fuss when really he was perfectly content haha.

However, it would be really nice to figure out how to have his blue come back through.

I don’t think the blue hues mute on tropical freshwater fish, I think it’s a physical facet on their scales. Shine a light in and see what condition he’s in!

 

[Uphoria]

I don’t think the blue hues mute on tropical freshwater fish, I think it’s a physical facet on their scales. Shine a light in and see what condition he’s in!

This is him with a spotlight on him. He’s just not blue ‍

 

[Apistonaut]

I’m curious, A. Borellii is not a black water species. He may have muted due to the environments colors being so foreign. I’d wait for someone who knows what they are talking about. Blackwater might not be appropriate. Was the temporary tank clear water?

 

[Uphoria]

I’m curious, A. Borellii is not a black water species. He may have muted due to the environments colors being so foreign. I’d wait for someone who knows what they are talking about. Blackwater might not be appropriate. Was the temporary tank clear water?

It was clearer. But still had some tannins to it and slightly tinted. Maybe I'll do more frequent water changes to help the driftwood tannins clear faster since it is leeching a lot it. That can't hurt at least right?

Thank you for all your input. I appreciate you taking the time.

 

[MacZ]

I initially had a second catappa leaf in but the water turned so black that I couldn't see anything so I removed it when I did the first water change. However, there is new driftwood that was soaked but not boiled so maybe that was also the culprit for the dark water. I don't mind the brown water but just don't want it so black that I can't enjoy watching the fish. Is there a good kind of leaf litter that won't add so many dark tannins?

The good thing is, you can't overdose humic substances that easily. Also it takes a day or two to clear up. Catappa is not my first choice, I use beech and oak I collect in the woods. But I don't do this for the colour of the water, as I'm simulating the conditions in a blackish clearwater creek, meaning actuall softwater, not tinted tap.
As your pH is about neutral I don't see any problems there, besides your sense of aesthetics. A. borellii isn't a blackwater species and your tank is only visually that (what we call faux blackwater), so all should be fine.

I was specifically told to leave the lights off to lower stress of the fish so I hope that wasn't counterproductive. I was under the impression that they were sensitive to the parameters of a new tank due to fluctuations of the cycle getting established so by transferring the cycle over and dosing Stability I was avoiding this issue but maybe I misunderstood the reasoning it sounds like?

You can keep the lights of for a day, but honestly: Why would you? That way you can't see the fish well in the most critical phase when especially behavioural changes hint at possible problems.

And a little info on "the cycle". It's less important than you think. It's just the prerequisite for the fish not getting affected by nitrogen compounds. Period. But there are other wasteproducts too. That's why many here are so keen on getting their tanks seasoned. Meaning the whole biology has had the time to develop and to spread it's legs so to speak.

His lateral line and vertical lines indicate he's feeling froggy and confident, for the most part.

The vertical lines are not a sign of good mood. I'd also assume them to be more visible due to the fish being quite young and the light in the pictures coming more from the back than the top/front. The second set of pictures also point to a young specimen, although how should the blue reflect if not hit by the light in the right angle? I do stick to not fully coloured up, though.

I don't think Apistogramma can mute their blues, which makes up the long flank of A. Borelliis. Typically they have more response in the reds, browns and yellows, things that are amplified by carotenoids. If you are not seeing the blue, it could just be the spectrum of light available in the tank with lots of tannins.

Speaking of blue: Blue usually is not a pigment, but due to the surface structure of the scales. We call that reflector scales sometimes. It's the same with the blue stripe on Paracheirodon (the genus of neon tetras). In heavily tinted water almost all colours get filtered out, including the blues. It's an optical effect, that's all.

Again, this is not actual blackwater. Well, we only have the pH, but as there is no word of using RO or rainwater and no readings for KH/GH, it's safe to assume it can't be true blackwater. And the amounts of visible humic substances are not a problem for any of the fish in this tank, quite the opposite. In any case though: The stuff is good for the fish, especially in this phase of the tanks lifetime I'd leave it in, just do your normal waterchanges. The humic substances are much more useful than anything you could add from a bottle. They help with osmoregulation (reducing the amount of energy needed to keep it going) and have positive effects on the slime coat. Additionally they have antibacterial properties (no worries, the filter is affected positively nontheless), which affect many opportunistic bacteria.

But we also know fish adapt to their environment. In brightly lit environments they look wahed out, in dark environments they try to be as dark as possible. Absolutely normal and cichlids are the real colour acrobats in freshwater, so there is a connection.