Stressed A. Borellii sp. Opal male

[Apistonaut]

The good thing is, you can't overdose humic substances that easily. Also it takes a day or two to clear up. Catappa is not my first choice, I use beech and oak I collect in the woods. But I don't do this for the colour of the water, as I'm simulating the conditions in a blackish clearwater creek, meaning actuall softwater, not tinted tap.
As your pH is about neutral I don't see any problems there, besides your sense of aesthetics. A. borellii isn't a blackwater species and your tank is only visually that (what we call faux blackwater), so all should be fine.

You can keep the lights of for a day, but honestly: Why would you? That way you can't see the fish well in the most critical phase when especially behavioural changes hint at possible problems.

And a little info on "the cycle". It's less important than you think. It's just the prerequisite for the fish not getting affected by nitrogen compounds. Period. But there are other wasteproducts too. That's why many here are so keen on getting their tanks seasoned. Meaning the whole biology has had the time to develop and to spread it's legs so to speak.

The vertical lines are not a sign of good mood. I'd also assume them to be more visible due to the fish being quite young and the light in the pictures coming more from the back than the top/front. The second set of pictures also point to a young specimen, although how should the blue reflect if not hit by the light in the right angle? I do stick to not fully coloured up, though.


Speaking of blue: Blue usually is not a pigment, but due to the surface structure of the scales. We call that reflector scales sometimes. It's the same with the blue stripe on Paracheirodon (the genus of neon tetras). In heavily tinted water almost all colours get filtered out, including the blues. It's an optical effect, that's all.

Again, this is not actual blackwater. Well, we only have the pH, but as there is no word of using RO or rainwater and no readings for KH/GH, it's safe to assume it can't be true blackwater. And the amounts of visible humic substances are not a problem for any of the fish in this tank, quite the opposite. In any case though: The stuff is good for the fish, especially in this phase of the tanks lifetime I'd leave it in, just do your normal waterchanges. The humic substances are much more useful than anything you could add from a bottle. They help with osmoregulation (reducing the amount of energy needed to keep it going) and have positive effects on the slime coat. Additionally they have antibacterial properties (no worries, the filter is affected positively nontheless), which affect many opportunistic bacteria.

But we also know fish adapt to their environment. In brightly lit environments they look wahed out, in dark environments they try to be as dark as possible. Absolutely normal and cichlids are the real colour acrobats in freshwater, so there is a connection.

Thank you for advising both of us. I’ve seen some females give broad vertical stripes on the flank during breeding, but it’s much more helpful knowing it can be problematic or from younger fish.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

basically you're saying that the Flourish isn't actually doing anything and the test kits are pointless?

"Yes" and "Yes & No".

but I just thought that Seachem was actually one of the top brands

The problem I have with the aquarium industry is around their <"business model"> and their <"advertising">. Specifically for Seachem some of their <"products are fine">, <"but over-priced">, and others are just <"snake-oil">.

and that testing your water was a vital part of maintaining a healthy system.

It would be, but really only if you have access to an analytical water testing lab. <"I actually look after a lab">., so I know what is involved. I recommend conductivity meters and thermometers as "plug and play", but after that everything else has some nuance. Personally I've developed <"visual techniques">, based on biotic induces and bioassay, that allow you to remain in the <"goldilocks zone"> for both livestock and plants.

What kind of water quality issue might it be and how would I know if I'm not using the test? What do you suggest I use or do instead?

Have a look at <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/threads/29-gallon-aquarium-new-setup.25016/#post-121504">.

I don't mind the brown water but just don't want it so black that I can't enjoy watching the fish. Is there a good kind of leaf litter that won't add so many dark tannins

Beech (Fagus sylvatica) works. Because they have persistent leaf litter you can pick the leaves up throughout the year.

I was under the impression that they were sensitive to the parameters of a new tank due to fluctuations of the cycle getting established so by transferring the cycle over and dosing Stability I was avoiding this issue but maybe I misunderstood the reasoning it sounds like?

What @MacZ says. Have a look at <"Correspondence with ...">, we've also talked with <"Tim Hovanec">.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

I’ve seen some females give broad vertical stripes on the flank during breeding

Depending on the species these could be the typical markings of that species. Stress is when you see all the stripes vaguely but permanently.

 

[Uphoria]

The good thing is, you can't overdose humic substances that easily. Also it takes a day or two to clear up. Catappa is not my first choice, I use beech and oak I collect in the woods. But I don't do this for the colour of the water, as I'm simulating the conditions in a blackish clearwater creek, meaning actuall softwater, not tinted tap.
As your pH is about neutral I don't see any problems there, besides your sense of aesthetics. A. borellii isn't a blackwater species and your tank is only visually that (what we call faux blackwater), so all should be fine.

You can keep the lights of for a day, but honestly: Why would you? That way you can't see the fish well in the most critical phase when especially behavioural changes hint at possible problems.

And a little info on "the cycle". It's less important than you think. It's just the prerequisite for the fish not getting affected by nitrogen compounds. Period. But there are other wasteproducts too. That's why many here are so keen on getting their tanks seasoned. Meaning the whole biology has had the time to develop and to spread it's legs so to speak.

The vertical lines are not a sign of good mood. I'd also assume them to be more visible due to the fish being quite young and the light in the pictures coming more from the back than the top/front. The second set of pictures also point to a young specimen, although how should the blue reflect if not hit by the light in the right angle? I do stick to not fully coloured up, though.


Speaking of blue: Blue usually is not a pigment, but due to the surface structure of the scales. We call that reflector scales sometimes. It's the same with the blue stripe on Paracheirodon (the genus of neon tetras). In heavily tinted water almost all colours get filtered out, including the blues. It's an optical effect, that's all.

Again, this is not actual blackwater. Well, we only have the pH, but as there is no word of using RO or rainwater and no readings for KH/GH, it's safe to assume it can't be true blackwater. And the amounts of visible humic substances are not a problem for any of the fish in this tank, quite the opposite. In any case though: The stuff is good for the fish, especially in this phase of the tanks lifetime I'd leave it in, just do your normal waterchanges. The humic substances are much more useful than anything you could add from a bottle. They help with osmoregulation (reducing the amount of energy needed to keep it going) and have positive effects on the slime coat. Additionally they have antibacterial properties (no worries, the filter is affected positively nontheless), which affect many opportunistic bacteria.

But we also know fish adapt to their environment. In brightly lit environments they look wahed out, in dark environments they try to be as dark as possible. Absolutely normal and cichlids are the real colour acrobats in freshwater, so there is a connection.

Thank you for touching on each of these subjects!

So considering everything you’ve said, is there any action you’d suggest taking for my fish? I would love to have his blue come back if possible but it sounds like he isn’t actually as stressed as I thought which is a relief.

I’ll be adding more leaf litter and plants soon while sticking to my normal water change routine.

 

[Uphoria]

Hi all,

"Yes" and "Yes & No".

The problem I have with the aquarium industry is around their <"business model"> and their <"advertising">. Specifically for Seachem some of their <"products are fine">, <"but over-priced">, and others are just <"snake-oil">.

It would be, but really only if you have access to an analytical water testing lab. <"I actually look after a lab">., so I know what is involved. I recommend conductivity meters and thermometers as "plug and play", but after that everything else has some nuance. Personally I've developed <"visual techniques">, based on biotic induces and bioassay, that allow you to remain in the <"goldilocks zone"> for both livestock and plants.

Have a look at <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/threads/29-gallon-aquarium-new-setup.25016/#post-121504">.

Beech (Fagus sylvatica) works. Because they have persistent leaf litter you can pick the leaves up throughout the year.

What @MacZ says. Have a look at <"Correspondence with ...">, we've also talked with <"Tim Hovanec">.

cheers Darrel

Thank you for all these links! I’ll be diving deeper into these soon.

 

[Mike Wise]

You might consider removing the dwarf gouramies for a time and see if your apisto colors up. A. borellii is not the most confident apisto and the gouramies, being very similar in size and shape might be disturbing him. Just a thought.

 

[Uphoria]

You might consider removing the dwarf gouramies for a time and see if your apisto colors up. A. borellii is not the most confident apisto and the gouramies, being very similar in size and shape might be disturbing him. Just a thought.

Hmmm okay. I’ll definitely consider this. Because they ignore each other I didn’t think they could be bothering him but I suppose just their presence could be causing him to feel uncomfortable.

 

[MacZ]

Thank you for touching on each of these subjects!

So considering everything you’ve said, is there any action you’d suggest taking for my fish? I would love to have his blue come back if possible but it sounds like he isn’t actually as stressed as I thought which is a relief.

I’ll be adding more leaf litter and plants soon while sticking to my normal water change routine.

Sorry for the delayed answers, though. And my pleasure.

My main advise in most cases: Patience and abstaining from blind actionism. unless it's obvious that a disease or parasite is causing havoc. Many things work out by themselves, some - like the dreaded dwarf cichlid sudden death syndrome (no worries, no signs on your fish!) - are sure to not end well from the start and only in very few cases we as the fishkeepers have any way of influencing what's happening at all.

More leaf litter is always an option of course.

Mike may have a point about the gourami. And it doesnt need direct contact or even conflict, sometimes the shere presence of bigger fish is enough to make another species become shy.

 

[Uphoria]

Sorry for the delayed answers, though. And my pleasure.

My main advise in most cases: Patience and abstaining from blind actionism. unless it's obvious that a disease or parasite is causing havoc. Many things work out by themselves, some - like the dreaded dwarf cichlid sudden death syndrome (no worries, no signs on your fish!) - are sure to not end well from the start and only in very few cases we as the fishkeepers have any way of influencing what's happening at all.

More leaf litter is always an option of course.

Mike may have a point about the gourami. And it doesnt need direct contact or even conflict, sometimes the shere presence of bigger fish is enough to make another species become shy.

This is my first year keeping fish and the biggest thing I'm learning is patience. I think I'm being patient but then realize I often am not haha. The give it time thing is slowly starting to become easier though and it sounds like this is one of those scenarios.

I added more plants with a water change yesterday that I had in quarantine (trying to avoid too many unwanted snails) along with leaf litter and all the fish seem pleased with them.

My A. Borellii is about the same size as my Honey Gourami at the moment and he will get bigger than them in the end by a smidge. And because they primarily occupy the top and he prefers the bottom, I thought I was in the clear with this combination. I only have a 5 gallon available alternatively so I'm going to give it a bit more time before taking them out to test the theory and potentially stressing the Honey out unnecessarily as they are very happy currently. I'm glad it's on my radar though because idk if I would have considered it.

What exactly does a shy Apisto behave like? Because aside from his lack of color and the vertical stripes, he seems to behave normal. I've never had any Apisto before to compare but he doesn't behave in a manner I would deem shy.

 

[Apistonaut]

This is my first year keeping fish and the biggest thing I'm learning is patience. I think I'm being patient but then realize I often am not haha. The give it time thing is slowly starting to become easier though and it sounds like this is one of those scenarios.

I added more plants with a water change yesterday that I had in quarantine (trying to avoid too many unwanted snails) along with leaf litter and all the fish seem pleased with them.

My A. Borellii is about the same size as my Honey Gourami at the moment and he will get bigger than them in the end by a smidge. And because they primarily occupy the top and he prefers the bottom, I thought I was in the clear with this combination. I only have a 5 gallon available alternatively so I'm going to give it a bit more time before taking them out to test the theory and potentially stressing the Honey out unnecessarily as they are very happy currently. I'm glad it's on my radar though because idk if I would have considered it.

What exactly does a shy Apisto behave like? Because aside from his lack of color and the vertical stripes, he seems to behave normal. I've never had any Apisto before to compare but he doesn't behave in a manner I would deem shy.

Happy and healthy Apistogramma are scanners and enjoy rooting through soft/grainy substrate seeking food, mates, and adversaries.

When kept solo, they are often carelessly oblivious to any smaller schooling fish like tetras and paracheirodon. They are prone to glass surf if their landscape is uninspiring and sparce, which isn't particularly bad, but you want to encourage their natural behavior. I found holes, caves, and breaks in line-of-sight encourage more relaxing scan and patrol behavior.

This goes for any complex non-schooling fish.

I have a trick where I plant fast growing stem plants kind of like staggered traffic cones. This encourages fish to slalom through and to keep stimulated while constantly breaking their line of sight. This aims to mimic the distribution of tall stem plants and milfoil in the wild.

They are relatively peaceful fish in the wild, albeit defensive. Like all fish, their behavior can be sheepish toward other opportunistic fish in nature, especially if much larger.

 

[MacZ]

My A. Borellii is about the same size as my Honey Gourami at the moment and he will get bigger than them in the end by a smidge.

Actually... the gourami will stay slightly bigger.

And because they primarily occupy the top and he prefers the bottom, I thought I was in the clear with this combination.

T. chuna is the only species of Trichogaster I would combine with Apistogramma. They are the equivalent to A. borellii in the labyrinth fish family. So I see no need to separate them.

What exactly does a shy Apisto behave like? Because aside from his lack of color and the vertical stripes, he seems to behave normal. I've never had any Apisto before to compare but he doesn't behave in a manner I would deem shy.

If kept solo a male Apistogramma of any species will spend about 80% of the day with foraging around the tank. A bigger species like A. hongsloi or A. macmasteri might glass surf horizontally. Additionally they may become aggressive towards other fish, especially around the main feeding area, but I've also seen them shush away any fish that moves too far down in the water column. A. borellii tend to be much more relaxed leaving all other fish to themselves.

 

[Apistonaut]

If kept solo a male Apistogramma of any species will spend about 80% of the day with foraging around the tank. A bigger species like A. hongsloi or A. macmasteri might glass surf horizontally. Additionally they may become aggressive towards other fish, especially around the main feeding area, but I've also seen them shush away any fish that moves too far down in the water column. A. borellii tend to be much more relaxed leaving all other fish to themselves.

This was my experience entirely, less the aggression. Macmasteri and Hongsloi preferred to forage and refused to acknowledge any other livestock.

In my very brief experience, I've found most fish are like working dogs. You need to assign them a job or they misbehave. In terms of Apistogramma, I like to give a single male plenty of territory and breaks in line-of-sight to give them a job. They can then forage and peacefully patrol as they do in the wild. When there is little visible blocks in the tank and open water, they become lethargic, irritable, and just anticipate feedings. I experienced this most with keeping T. Pumila.

 

[MacZ]

In my very brief experience, I've found most fish are like working dogs. You need to assign them a job or they misbehave. In terms of Apistogramma, I like to give a single male plenty of territory and breaks in line-of-sight to give them a job.

Strange way of phrasing it, but basically: Recreate the habitat, give the fish enrichment, done. It's not like you actively give them something to do, you just offer them the option to do it.

 

[Uphoria]

Actually... the gourami will stay slightly bigger.

Really? T. Chuna are pretty small and according to seriouslyfish.com they will max out at 5.5cm vs the A. Borellii max out at 6.5cm. I was told seriouslyfish.com was one of the best reliable sources. Or do you consider the T. Chuna bigger because of their thickness?

If my fish is doing all of those things you mentioned a solo male should be doing... is there any reason to be concerned about him just because of his lack of color and his stripes?

 

[MacZ]

Really? T. Chuna are pretty small and according to seriouslyfish.com they will max out at 5.5cm vs the A. Borellii max out at 6.5cm. I was told seriouslyfish.com was one of the best reliable sources. Or do you consider the T. Chuna bigger because of their thickness?

No, simply because I've seen bigger T. chuna than A. borellii. Length and mass.

If my fish is doing all of those things you mentioned a solo male should be doing... is there any reason to be concerned about him just because of his lack of color and his stripes?

Nope.

 

[Uphoria]

This was my experience entirely, less the aggression. Macmasteri and Hongsloi preferred to forage and refused to acknowledge any other livestock.

In my very brief experience, I've found most fish are like working dogs. You need to assign them a job or they misbehave. In terms of Apistogramma, I like to give a single male plenty of territory and breaks in line-of-sight to give them a job. They can then forage and peacefully patrol as they do in the wild. When there is little visible blocks in the tank and open water, they become lethargic, irritable, and just anticipate feedings. I experienced this most with keeping T. Pumila.

Having grown up on a ranch, I can very much understand that analogy haha. Makes sense to me.

I believe I have broken up the tank a decent amount to create good breaks in sight. And I just added more plants to create more interest in the more open spaces. He also has multiple cavelike structures throughout. When I feed live daphnia specifically I will feed at the top of the water column to attract all the other fish then spot feed around the bottom and even use a pipette to squirt some into the cave areas in order to give him the stimulation of hunting them and avoid competing heavily with the others for his share of food.

I also realize that the natural sand I have in the front portion of my tank isn't fine enough for him to do his gill filtering thing so I will be getting a small amount of finer sand to sprinkle on top and give him more to play with.

 

[Uphoria]

Unfortunately, he has passed away. The last few days he was very reclusive and I barely saw him. When I did see him he was so deeply striped that he looked almost pure black in the shadows he was lurking in save for his face which had his speckles and very bright red cheeks.

Water parameters were still stable as listed before and I had done my normal weekly water changes.

I am very bummed out that I couldn't give him what he needed. Everything in the tank was catered to him the best I knew how but I'm thinking I just should not have tried to make him a community fish. I only have space for my two tanks right now so I think I'll just wait until my betta passes before trying them again and then give them their own tank. My betta is younger but he is a marble and is already growing the notorious marble gene tumors so it will be a bittersweet transition sooner than later I suspect.

 

[Apistonaut]

Were you introducing water straight from the tap without aging it or conditioning, by chance?

 

[Uphoria]

Were you introducing water straight from the tap without aging it or conditioning, by chance?

No... I use Prime with all my water changes.

 

[Apistonaut]

No... I use Prime with all my water changes.

Other than a mystery parameter, I'm at a loss.
The sponge that you use to clean your glass, has that ever been in contact with soaps?