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how to deworm wild caught discus

anewbie

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1,332
Do you know of https://forum.simplydiscus.com/forum.php.
I tired of the place but while still active, I originated the "Heckel Project."
Look at the wild discus subforum.
I don't think I can be of more help to you.
Good luck.
Ok. I'll get some feedback over there. The fellow i talked to via phone imports a lot of wild fishes for past 20 years - i'll still try again to get a 40B between now and monday morning - just that holiday weekend removed a lot of local stock. I just happen to have a spare unusued 20 and 29 obviously a 20 long is too short for these fishes - but if i can pick up a 40B i will - i realize a 55 will be more problematic because it won't fit in my car and i won't be able to carry it in - disadvantage of living alone.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
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2,892
Location
Germany
I wouldn't do it.
I concur.
Do you think a bare bottom 29 would work for 4 5-6 inch discus for two weeks if i did daily 50% water changes ?

I check local store inventory and stuff is kind of out of stock because of the holiday weekend and i have a spare 29 sitting around never used. My gut feeling is a 29 is pushing it in water volume but just not sure.
You're going overboard now in terms of going smaller. I'd listen to my gut and not do it.
I talked to someone else who has qt wild discus up to 6 inches and they said they typically use a 20 for 2 weeks without issues;
Are we doing this shtick now? Sorry, but you have seen yourself what happens when someone starts their posts like this.
i might start with the 29 and if it looked problematic go ahead and move them into the 240; i'll check another pet shop to see what they have tomorrow.
you can just skip waiting until there are problems and either start in a bigger tank or move them to the main directly, means the other fish will have to go through quarantine in a different tank, but they will likely be smaller, right? And I see no problem as long as the discus are the only fish in the display. Yes, if you have to use meds it is going to be expensive, but the better option in my opinion.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
I concur.

You're going overboard now in terms of going smaller. I'd listen to my gut and not do it.

Are we doing this shtick now? Sorry, but you have seen yourself what happens when someone starts their posts like this.

you can just skip waiting until there are problems and either start in a bigger tank or move them to the main directly, means the other fish will have to go through quarantine in a different tank, but they will likely be smaller, right? And I see no problem as long as the discus are the only fish in the display. Yes, if you have to use meds it is going to be expensive, but the better option in my opinion.
The only thing in the 240 are some cheap cardinals - the biggest problem with the 240 (other than size); is that it has pool sand on the bottom and i see the advantage of using a bare bottom aquarium. The fellow i chatted with - i was buying some wc apisto (winkelfleck) so i asked him if he imported wc discus and how he qt'ed them but i also double checked the size of these since my post and the seller actually said they were larger than i thought - between 6 and 7 inch.

Basically my original plan had been to put them in the 240 since it was mostly empty i didn't consider putting them in a bare bottom aquarium and now i'm scrambling to find something.

So basically bad planning on my part.

I do miss the days i lived in colorado and there were 6 'local' stores all carrying decent selection of aquariums; these days i'm stuck with chain stores with leaking faucet that are frequently out of stock.
 
Last edited:

MacZ

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2,892
Location
Germany
May I just propose the pragmatic solution:
Give up on the 40 if you can't get one until 3-4 days before you bet the discus, don't bother with the 29 in the first place. Do quarantine in the big tank, if neither is feasable.
Won't be ideal conditions for quarantine, but it will do. As long as it's just sand and the tank isn't fully decorated yet. Quarantine the other species you've planned separately instead.

That will definitely do. Otherwise you're overthinking and becoming slightly more indecisive the longer the planning takes. Focus on the basics, keep in mind that if you are stressed out and giving yourself even more stress, the whole operation is more likely to go downhill.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,332
May I just propose the pragmatic solution:
Give up on the 40 if you can't get one until 3-4 days before you bet the discus, don't bother with the 29 in the first place. Do quarantine in the big tank, if neither is feasable.
Won't be ideal conditions for quarantine, but it will do. As long as it's just sand and the tank isn't fully decorated yet. Quarantine the other species you've planned separately instead.

That will definitely do. Otherwise you're overthinking and becoming slightly more indecisive the longer the planning takes. Focus on the basics, keep in mind that if you are stressed out and giving yourself even more stress, the whole operation is more likely to go downhill.
Other than the cardinals nothing else is going into the aquarium for several months; when i listed the target stocking it is a future thing - i expect to add rams in march or sooner if the seller temps warm up (he lives in an area where it is very cold during the winter - my sister used to live up there and i regretted visiting her in the winter. Mind you she was a sweet heart but the weather sucks). Also the rams are easy to qt in a 20 long.

There is a custom aquarium builder about an hour away i forgot about - i emailed them to see if they have anything in stock - i don't want to pay $500 for a qt'ing aquarium but sometime they have stuff left over (buyer skipped or a tank gets scratched) and i don't mind taking 2 hours to drive out there (1 hour each way).

I'm mostly stressed because i'm lousy at meds and detecting diseases and i'm worried that when i get the discus they will have parasites and i won't recognize it - you have to understand i lack a lot of experience in certain areas and i feel like i did something really wrong if the fishes don't thrive - sort of a moral obligation to give them suitable home. I'm not sure i'd recognize worms if they jumped out and bit me but i have to believe with the number of wc fishes i have purchased surely some of them had parasites ?

I'm also worry about the med bit - too much will destory their organs not enough and worms will pollute the tank. Anyway if i get the 40B or 50B (which is better); i'll go that route - i have mature sponge filters and stuff laying around and always keep extra heaters.

I'll take pictures when they arrive and keep an eye on them.

(I'll drop the 29 and either use the 240 or a 40/50 if i can get one).

And yes the 240B already has plants and drift wood but no leaves.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
@MacZ i guess one useful thing i should ask do you think it is important to remove the driftwood from the 240 if i put the discus in there ?
 

MacZ

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Messages
2,892
Location
Germany
I'm also worry about the med bit - too much will destory their organs not enough and worms will pollute the tank. Anyway if i get the 40B or 50B (which is better); i'll go that route - i have mature sponge filters and stuff laying around and always keep extra heaters.
Meds come with instructions. Stick to them and it should work out.

I'm mostly stressed because i'm lousy at meds and detecting diseases and i'm worried that when i get the discus they will have parasites and i won't recognize it - you have to understand i lack a lot of experience in certain areas and i feel like i did something really wrong if the fishes don't thrive - sort of a moral obligation to give them suitable home. I'm not sure i'd recognize worms if they jumped out and bit me but i have to believe with the number of wc fishes i have purchased surely some of them had parasites ?
As of late I observe you having trouble with your self-confidence, which is kinda bewildering to me, as you have made a lot of progress in terms of fishkeeping practice and understanding and your attitude has shifted to a more "for the fish" approach than a year or two ago. Honestly, at first when I showed up here we had some differences that made me put you on ignore for a while, because I couldn't deal with it. I don't know what it is, but lately you seem indecisive, anxious, overly careful. Not saying you should be more careless, but you're slowing yourself down. But sometimes you still do shotgun decisions (e.g. buying new fish right before moving and such). ;)

Keep your focus, evaluate the pros and cons, count in feasability and necessary effort and then decide for the plan with the least unknown variables.

If I were in your position: Quarantine in the 240, ask more about what symptoms to look for and use meds as per instructions.

As for symptoms to look for:
- white (sometimes stringy) feces
- loss of appetite
- weight loss
- "knife back" (means the back becomes just as thin as the dorsal fin)
- HITH (if that shows up it has taken months of infestation before)

I know that you know the drill, you just need a boost in confidence.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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2,740
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I talked to someone else who has qt wild discus up to 6 inches and they said they typically use a 20 for 2 weeks without issues; i might start with the 29 and if it looked problematic go ahead and move them into the 240; i'll check another pet shop to see what they have tomorrow.
I'm not a Discus keeper, but if I was? I would listen to Larry's (@Apistomaster) advice, he is the man who can.

cheers Darrel
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
I did find a 40 but no lid; so they will be lidless the first couple of days - i don't think discus are known for jumping but if i am mistaken please let me know and i'll dig out some screening to put over the aquarium.

I have a question more related to ph swing; so i'm (obviously?) using ro water for this aquarium and as such the kh is very close to 0; does it matter to the fish if the numerical ph swings since a tiny amount of ion will fluctuate ph or do i need to use some peat (obviously? in a filter bag) to 'stabilize the ph. I.e, do the fishes really care that much about ph swing if the actual ion level is only fluctuating a little ?

The tank will other wise be bare 'cept for 2 mature sponge filters i will pull from other aquariums (and whatever algae bit are on them).

This is something i've never really understood about ph and peat; that is if the fishes are actually impacted if you don't use peat to absorb the remaining ions.

Oh well i guess they can jump so i'll find some fiber screening i have somewhere to cover the tank until the amazon delivers the top.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
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11,162
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Don't worry about pH swings unless it moves from low to high pH (from under pH 7 to over ph7) , which allows ammonium ions (NH4+) to oxidize into Ammonia (NH3). Wild softwater fish are adapted to pH swings of 0.5 one way or the other.

If you're worried about the Discus jumping, then head down to the local hardware store and buy a piece of fluorescent light cover (cheap, plastic and light). If you're really worried, then you can tape it down to the tank.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
Don't worry about pH swings unless it moves from low to high pH (from under pH 7 to over ph7) , which allows ammonium ions (NH4+) to oxidize into Ammonia (NH3). Wild softwater fish are adapted to pH swings of 0.5 one way or the other.

If you're worried about the Discus jumping, then head down to the local hardware store and buy a piece of fluorescent light cover (cheap, plastic and light). If you're really worried, then you can tape it down to the tank.
Thank mike; i have some fiber glass screening for porches i can put over the top until the top arrives. Inventory at the local store was exhausted from the black friday/cyber monday stuff.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
Well all that rushing for basically nothing; the shipping has been delayed by 2 1/2 weeks. He shipped a bunch of fishes over blackfriday week and well you can guess what happened; quite a few DOAs due to delays. He gave my royals to someone else and i agree to accept orange cameta in their place (not nearly as pretty but less expensive and hey this is my first time with wild discus so it seem reasonable to me; there is of course a $$ adjustment and as part of the adjustment i'm getting 20 more hastatus cory for my cupido aquarium (had ~15) and i expect ~15 to make it for 30. I hope - hard to tell how many i had because unlike my pygmy they are super shy and never come near the front for me to count - more precisely they spend all day hiding under the driftwood. hum... well that is one aquarium i want to keep sparse (200 gallons with 8 cupido and 10-12 a. pucalpaces and ~15 c. hastatus). it works the cupido are making the male a. pucallpaensis a lot braver (i.e, willing to come 1/2 way to the front to feed; hey 1/2 way is better than 0 way).
-
anyway i'll post pictures in about 2 weeks unless something changes again. I am a bit confused about the cupido - people say they are very delicate but they act a lot like my keyholes but a lot shyer - but if they are delicate does this mean in 4 months they will bloat up and die ?

I've had them for about 6 weeks; but i'm not sure what the timeline is to determine they won't bloat or not.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
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702
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Clarkston, WA
I decided to comment as I find myself a few 100 miles from home in a "human quarantine tank." I am not undergoing deworming but rather other ailments.
Here my when I say that keeping wild discus can actually be easier than many wild Apistos or especially Dicrossus spp.
I love Royal Blues but what you are getting are just as great and will be as lovely alternative.

Obtaining a group of genuine Corydoras hastatus is actually far more valuable than all the others fishes which have been mentioned. They are much more attractive than C. pymgmeus. Should you set them up alone or with some flavor of the species cherry shrimp as a colony, the are C. hastatus are prolific spawners. I raised several hundred in a 20 long per year until I had to give up many of my favorite things due to health issues. THESE ARE TREASURES in the USA!
I have bought literally thousands of C. Pymgmeus before finally getting C. hastatus.

Indulge my digression, but last year I broke down and bought 6 wild Betta coccina. Always been on my "bucket list." Unlike the demanding wild SA Cichlids, B. coccina do not like water changes. Finely tuned benign neglect is the way to go. These guys have evolved to live in forest swamp puddles. I think they are what you would get if you tossed Dicrossus and annua lol killies like the Simpsonichthys spp.

I'll get back to you if I survive. Good luck for now.
Larry
 

Apistomaster

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5 Year Member
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702
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Clarkston, WA
I decided to comment as I find myself a few 100 miles from home in a "human quarantine tank." I am not undergoing deworming but rather other ailments.
Here my when I say that keeping wild discus can actually be easier than many wild Apistos or especially Dicrossus spp.
I love Royal Blues but what you are getting are just as great and will be as lovely alternative.

Obtaining a group of genuine Corydoras hastatus is actually far more valuable than all the others fishes which have been mentioned. They are much more attractive than C. pymgmeus. Should you set them up alone or with some flavor of the species cherry shrimp as a colony, the are C. hastatus are prolific spawners. I raised several hundred in a 20 long per year until I had to give up many of my favorite things due to health issues. THESE ARE TREASURES in the USA!
I have bought literally thousands of C. Pymgmeus before finally getting C. hastatus.

Indulge my digression, but last year I broke down and bought 6 wild Betta coccina. Always been on my "bucket list." Unlike the demanding wild SA Cichlids, B. coccina do not like water changes. Finely tuned benign neglect is the way to go. These guys have evolved to live in forest swamp puddles. I think they are what you would get if you tossed Dicrossus and a SA annual killie in the genera Simpsonichthys into a blender and out came a new type of small fish.

I'll get back to you if I survive. Good luck for now.
Larry
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
I'll get back to you if I survive. Good luck for now.
Larry
Good luck; hopefully what you have is not too serious; though i guess as you get older everything gets more serious. I'm mixed on the C. hastatus but mostly because they are even less out going than my pygmy (in another aquarium). My primary reason for getting another 20 is in hope that makes them more out going as their tank mates won't bother them. I am setting up a pair of 48 L x 17 L; and not sure what i will do with them though one i think i will dedicate to one of the invanka species; the other who knows another dwarf cichlid or maybe some cory. i'm finding i like both c. hastatus and c. eques for different reason alas they are not really temp compatible. The c. equeus are the first cory i've owned that are totally relaxed around giant monsters outside their cage; i was told this would be the case and it is.
-
I don't think i'll try some of the exoctic betta and gourami (i've seen and read about some amazing species of gourami); my little brain is having trouble digesting all the specifics of different species and i rather learn to keep my current fishes alive 100 years than rotate from species to species because they keep dying.
--
Back to discus - my primary reason for only getting 4 (he offered 6 in exchange to the royals) is that i want to limit the 240 to 8 discus; 8 blue rams (wc); and 40 cardinals and i consider that borderline over stock - this way i can get 4 of another wc species in the spring. aquaticclarity has been quite helpful in getting some of my wish fishes. Anyway thank you for your advice and good luck healing.
 

Apistomaster

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702
Location
Clarkston, WA
Good luck; hopefully what you have is not too serious; though i guess as you get older everything gets more serious. I'm mixed on the C. hastatus but mostly because they are even less out going than my pygmy (in another aquarium). My primary reason for getting another 20 is in hope that makes them more out going as their tank mates won't bother them. I am setting up a pair of 48 L x 17 L; and not sure what i will do with them though one i think i will dedicate to one of the invanka species; the other who knows another dwarf cichlid or maybe some cory. i'm finding i like both c. hastatus and c. eques for different reason alas they are not really temp compatible. The c. equeus are the first cory i've owned that are totally relaxed around giant monsters outside their cage; i was told this would be the case and it is.
-
I don't think i'll try some of the exoctic betta and gourami (i've seen and read about some amazing species of gourami); my little brain is having trouble digesting all the specifics of different species and i rather learn to keep my current fishes alive 100 years than rotate from species to species because they keep dying.
--
Back to discus - my primary reason for only getting 4 (he offered 6 in exchange to the royals) is that i want to limit the 240 to 8 discus; 8 blue rams (wc); and 40 cardinals and i consider that borderline over stock - this way i can get 4 of another wc species in the spring. aquaticclarity has been quite helpful in getting some of my wish fishes. Anyway thank you for your advice and good luck healing.
Of course, we all have our own vision of what constitutes the ideal display aquarium. Yours for your 240 gals will be beautiful, I'm sure.
It is easier to keep wild discus when, after meeting their spation requirement one should consider their fairly complicated social behavior. A definite pecking order quickly develops. Despite the ample space for only 4 adults there will be more spread out intra-specific aggression if you worked with 6 to 12 in such an ample tank. There will always be "that one" which is .at the bottom of the social hiarchy, but life for the less dominant members is easier for them when they typically self sort out into subgroups The cardinals will be good dithers and scavengers, Discus are messy eaters.
I'm a bit surprised about you including the wild M. ramerezi because in the normal ranges between discus and rams they would never occur in the same places nor types of habitats. I try to share all of what I I have learned but that doesn't mean I know it all. Wouldn't be a good hobby if you didn't get to discover things by way of your own experiences.
Just some things to consider.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
Of course, we all have our own vision of what constitutes the ideal display aquarium. Yours for your 240 gals will be beautiful, I'm sure.
It is easier to keep wild discus when, after meeting their spation requirement one should consider their fairly complicated social behavior. A definite pecking order quickly develops. Despite the ample space for only 4 adults there will be more spread out intra-specific aggression if you worked with 6 to 12 in such an ample tank. There will always be "that one" which is .at the bottom of the social hiarchy, but life for the less dominant members is easier for them when they typically self sort out into subgroups The cardinals will be good dithers and scavengers, Discus are messy eaters.
I'm a bit surprised about you including the wild M. ramerezi because in the normal ranges between discus and rams they would never occur in the same places nor types of habitats. I try to share all of what I I have learned but that doesn't mean I know it all. Wouldn't be a good hobby if you didn't get to discover things by way of your own experiences.
Just some things to consider.
I'm not really a habitat purist; the inclusion of rams was more of a temp/behavior compatibility thought. Both fishes require lower mid 80s; low current; ... I have x aquariums and interest in y fishes. The real question (for me) is there a reason to not include the rams. I've kept domestic angels for some years and my crude understanding is discus are similar but have a higher requirement on clean water and are less aggression (intra species); which can be extremely high with angels.

As for number of discus i do intend to add 4 more in the spring (or earlier) when something interesting becomes available. I'm not sure if there is a concern (or issue) with two different locality of discus cross breeding; naively i view them as the same species with different outer coating but perhaps it is more complex than that or other considerations i am un-aware. My original plan was 4 royal and 4 cameta but a shipping ($$$) arose because they could not fit in one box; hence the reduction to 4 so i could get 4 more later on.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,892
Location
Germany
The combination of Discus and M. ramirezi is due to the high temperatures Discus are kept at IF fed beef heart. Stendtker introduced that if I'm not mistaken. They only require higher temp under this premise. Especially wild Discus I'd keep at lower temp (25-27°C) and with appropriate dwarfs like Dicrossus sp. or the local Apistogramma sp..

And the genetics are just as complicated as with Apistogramma or Corydoras or other genera in South America with many local types.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,332
The combination of Discus and M. ramirezi is due to the high temperatures Discus are kept at IF fed beef heart. Stendtker introduced that if I'm not mistaken. They only require higher temp under this premise. Especially wild Discus I'd keep at lower temp (25-27°C) and with appropriate dwarfs like Dicrossus sp. or the local Apistogramma sp..

And the genetics are just as complicated as with Apistogramma or Corydoras or other genera in South America with many local types.
I'm confused; i was under the impression that orange cameta should be kept 82-84 range with heckel warmer. Here is one thread with some references but before i decided to purchase them i found several other articles with high 70s sometime for triggering spawning.


Obviously if i can keep them at a lower temp than i would not put the rams there and maybe look for an interesting dicrossus; i can always keep the rams with the winemilleri (assuming the winemilleri wont' eat them).


Here is another thread that references a book Hans MayLand's Book Adventures with Discus

I've not read the book but taking the poster's comment verbatium.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
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702
Location
Clarkston, WA
I think Dr. Eduardo Schimidt-Focke beat Stendker to the use of beefheart by around a couple of decades. Schimidt-Focke developed the classic red turquoise strain by cross breeding the best wild royal blue haraldi and likewise the best aquifasciata. Then he selectively bred the best resulting hybrids and the rest is history. Stendker mostly worked on improving them but the good Dr was the pioneer.
Species splitters and lumpers will provide us with never ending, entertainment and energetic debates for the foreseeable future. My own views are that Apistogramma get isolated, recombined and are subject to far greater evolutionary plasticity than discus. I'm pretty happy with the current 4 classified species. I think S. discus is the eldest and most unique of the extant species. Discus seem to be naturally variable as to chromatic phenotypes and seem quite willingly reproduce with what's available. Even I have had haraldi and aquifasciata interbreed. These latter 2 species also have more obvious sexual dichromatic. If you get a large group of the best of the best, you probably will also have sex ratios which skew heavily towards males. I wouldn't want that as a fish breeder nor for a more cohesive social group. And discus are aggressive but just in different ways than Pterophyllum and within the latter genera, altum, scalare and Leopoldi are more distinctively different than among the 4 spps of Symphysodon. S. discus sort of sticks out from the others. They have broken the souls of many a would be breeder. I know breeding isn't your goal at present but the better one can understand an animals biology the easier they are to keep.
I need to take a break. Tapping out detailed discussions on a smart phone is much harder than any other devices.
 

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