with Discus?

[Toby_H]

TLDR = What, if any, Dwarf Cichlid will go well in a Discus tank?

I've kept Cichlids for the majority of the last 4 decades. I've kept and bred Cacatuoides on a number of occasions. I've kept a couple other Dwarf species. I've never kept Discus...
I currently have a small group of WC Cacatuoides in a 150 Gal Rubbermaid that are breeding.

I have a 195 Gallon (5'x2.5'@2'tall) tank arriving tomorrow that will be set up with a 90 Gal sump. This will be the living room show tank.
Discus will be the featured inhabitant, but lightly stocked so I can have other fish as well.
With this large amount of floor space (12.5 sq ft) I'd love to have a colony/group of Dwarf Cichlids.

Keep in mind this tank will be hot. 83*F (28.3C).
Water is soft, 6.5 PH. Will be very well filtered with strong water change schedule.
There will be a few plants in the bottom of the tank, but lightly planted. Plants in pots, pots hidden by decor. Sand substrate but very little.
I make concrete backgrounds, caves, tunnels, etc. I plan to make a few different cave clusters to provide shelter.

Whatever Dwarves I go with will be the secondary feature. The Discus's needs must be met. But with those exceptions, I will adjust as needed to suit the Dwarves. Any other tankmates will be chosen to suit these two features.

The aquarium will be here tomorrow. But I have to build a stand and set up the plumbing for the sump. I'm also making a few other changes to the "fishroom" (spare bedroom full of fish tanks). So it'll be 4-6 weeks before the tank is set up. I can essentially "instant" cycle with mature filters/media/etc from established aquariums. But still plan to build the stock slowly. Endlers and/or other tiny fish first. Probably Dwarves next. The Discus will likely be grown out in a separate tank (bare tank easier to keep clean until they get some size on them).

Please suggest Dwarves for this set up and feel free to critique any of the rest of the plan.

Thanks

 

[martin_c]

Hi,
I kept Apistogramma diplotaenia together with Heckel discus for a while and it worked well. Both like it warm.

 

[MacZ]

Keep in mind this tank will be hot. 83*F (28.3C).

May I ask why? While yes, some get very high temp in the wild, unless you plan to feed beef heart, which is from a nutritional point of view a real mess, there is no need for that. It is also detrimental to the health of many other fish, obviously eating it too when in the same tank
I can link a video from Ivan Mikolji about proper food for Discus.

When it comes to water parameters (hardness, conductivity, pH) Discus and most dwarf cichlids have almost 100% overlap in requirements, especially if they come from the same habitats and regions, so I see no need from that direction to make any compromises. EC as low as possible, temperature 25-27°C, pH 5-6 and I would do almost any combination. Esceptions would be e.g. A. borellii, which seem do to best at room temp, which is too low for Discus.

Usually I'm anti medication without necessity, but in this case I would deworm both the Discus and the dwarf cichlids beforehand in quarantine. Both tend to come with a lot of different intestinal parasites and their respective modes of feeding would push infection in both directions. Levamisol, Fubendazole and Praziquantel would be first choice in single ingredient meds, also working but a bit of an overkill would be Metronidazole.

Concerning caves and tunnels you mention: In my experience dwarf cichlids tend to avoid dark caves and tunnels unless they are spawning. Dark caves mean predators, so many fish stay away from them.
Also try to set boundaries for territories, wood or rocks up until 10-15cm over the sand, no chance of looking (let alone swimming) underneath it. Done. Those will be crucial if you leave the bottom relatively open. I would also do a lot of leaf litter. A proper leaf litter bed provides food and shelter for dwarf cichlids and is able to process a lot of waste.

 

[martin_c]

@MacZ
I think we had that conversation before, but i don't quite understand why you want discus to be kept in temperatures lower than 27°C. Even though they live in the same geographic range as most Apistogrammas they don't live in the shaded forest streams but seek larger waters that are more heated up by the sun. Same goes for A. diplotaenia. Why wouldn't we want to match the natural temperature in our aquarium?

 

[MacZ]

We had that, yes. My point is still, that only a few degrees less work and have some extra advantages: Discus are very susceptible to bacterial infections which are easier to control in just a few degrees less, the choices for tankmates are wider and the side effect of saving on energy is not to underestimate.

If it's domestic Discus I would definitely put temp not as high, for wild ones or lower F-generations, 26+ is enough I think.

 

[anewbie]

May I ask why? While yes, some get very high temp in the wild, unless you plan to feed beef heart, which is from a nutritional point of view a real mess, there is no need for that. It is also detrimental to the health of many other fish, obviously eating it too when in the same tank
I can link a video from Ivan Mikolji about proper food for Discus.

When it comes to water parameters (hardness, conductivity, pH) Discus and most dwarf cichlids have almost 100% overlap in requirements, especially if they come from the same habitats and regions, so I see no need from that direction to make any compromises. EC as low as possible, temperature 25-27°C, pH 5-6 and I would do almost any combination. Esceptions would be e.g. A. borellii, which seem do to best at room temp, which is too low for Discus.

Usually I'm anti medication without necessity, but in this case I would deworm both the Discus and the dwarf cichlids beforehand in quarantine. Both tend to come with a lot of different intestinal parasites and their respective modes of feeding would push infection in both directions. Levamisol, Fubendazole and Praziquantel would be first choice in single ingredient meds, also working but a bit of an overkill would be Metronidazole.

Concerning caves and tunnels you mention: In my experience dwarf cichlids tend to avoid dark caves and tunnels unless they are spawning. Dark caves mean predators, so many fish stay away from them.
Also try to set boundaries for territories, wood or rocks up until 10-15cm over the sand, no chance of looking (let alone swimming) underneath it. Done. Those will be crucial if you leave the bottom relatively open. I would also do a lot of leaf litter. A proper leaf litter bed provides food and shelter for dwarf cichlids and is able to process a lot of waste.

My wild caught discus get very upset if the temp gets below 81.5; i've tried various temps between 79 and 85 and once it gets below 81.5 they won't do much including eat. So i have the temp set to 84 and the tank ranges from 81.5 to 84.

As for dwarf cichild - rams work. 82 is a little warm for them and the ones i have in my 500 with geo @ 79 do a bit better. The EC of my discus tank stays around 21-22 and the ph around 4.9-5.3

 

[Mike Wise]

... Discus are very susceptible to bacterial infections which are easier to control in just a few degrees less, ...

This make no sense to me. Lower temperatures with cold-blooded animals reduces their metabolism and, thus, their ability to ward of diseases.

 

[Toby_H]

Thank you all for your contributions. This is the type of conversation I was hoping to have!

Hi,
I kept Apistogramma diplotaenia together with Heckel discus for a while and it worked well. Both like it warm.

I looked these up last night. I'll definitely add them to the list of consideration.
They seem like they may be too small for this set up. But I also have a 40 gal "Shrimp Tank" elsewhere that I've been considering adding something more interesting to.

May I ask why? ...I can link a video from Ivan Mikolji about proper food for Discus.

Essentially, I'm following the advice given by others... I don't plan on feeding Beef Heart as a staple, but it's on the list of options. I welcome the video you mentioned.

Usually I'm anti medication without necessity, but in this case I would deworm both the Discus and the dwarf cichlids beforehand in quarantine. Both tend to come with a lot of different intestinal parasites and their respective modes of feeding would push infection in both directions. Levamisol, Fubendazole and Praziquantel would be first choice in single ingredient meds, also working but a bit of an overkill would be Metronidazole.

Generally speaking, I'm also "Anti-Meds" for my fish. But I expect going into Discus I'll need to read up on some things and keep one or two on hand.

I prefer Tank Bred individuals.

For my Discus, I plan on not breeding for distribution and will leave any fry produced in the tank for the tank to consume. Therefore healthy & pretty individuals is all that I really care about.

But, if I get an interesting Dwarf Cichlid I'll likely pull their fry from time to time and raise what I can. So stronger genetics are a worthwhile characteristic of my Dwarves. There also seems to be a few species that are easier to find WC or F1 individuals for sale.

Concerning caves and tunnels you mention: In my experience dwarf cichlids tend to avoid dark caves and tunnels unless they are spawning. Dark caves mean predators, so many fish stay away from them.
Also try to set boundaries for territories, wood or rocks up until 10-15cm over the sand, no chance of looking (let alone swimming) underneath it. Done. Those will be crucial if you leave the bottom relatively open. I would also do a lot of leaf litter. A proper leaf litter bed provides food and shelter for dwarf cichlids and is able to process a lot of waste.

With a 60" x 30" footprint, I plan to have thin sand from wall to wall... with 3 "outcrops" of "rocks". These will be custom made concrete structures designed to host Dwarves. So you gave great input above to help design them. More cracks and ridges, less caves and tunnels.

I know most Dwarves love leaf litter... but the Discus folks keep screaming "bare bottom" at me. As anything on the floor hides detritus. I'll likely get the system set up and experiment with this in a smaller area and see what happens.

Discus are very susceptible to bacterial infections which are easier to control in just a few degrees less...

I see the point and the conflict in this. The bacteria driving the infection thrives in warmer environments. Thus warming the water strengthens the Bacteria. But, the fish's metabolism also speeds up, making the fish stronger in warmer conditions. As to which is strengthened more by the heat, or hindered more by the reduced heat... I have no idea...

My wild caught discus get very upset if the temp gets below 81.5; i've tried various temps between 79 and 85 and once it gets below 81.5 they won't do much including eat. So i have the temp set to 84 and the tank ranges from 81.5 to 84.

Solid input about your Discus & Temps. I'm not interested in WC for this set up. In your experience, do tank bred strains thrive just as well in slightly cooler water?

As for dwarf cichild - rams work. 82 is a little warm for them and the ones i have in my 500 with geo @ 79 do a bit better. The EC of my discus tank stays around 21-22 and the ph around 4.9-5.3

If I remember right, German Rams prefer warmer water than Bolivian.

I prefer Apistos over Rams. But I did envision 1, maybe 2, pairs of Rams among a larger colony of Apistos.

I also have a small group of Geo Sveni in a different set up. If they ever evolve into a big Breeding Group I will consider adding some of their offspring into this set up. Though I'm not sure it would be well suited for them (too much heat, too little sand).

 

[martin_c]

With a 60" x 30" footprint, I plan to have thin sand from wall to wall... with 3 "outcrops" of "rocks". These will be custom made concrete structures designed to host Dwarves. So you gave great input above to help design them. More cracks and ridges, less caves and tunnels.

On one hand, the concrete structures that you are planning with cracks and crevices to hide in reminds me a lot of how Oliver Lukanus describes the habitat of A. psammophila (close relative of A. diplotaenia)
(

beginning at minute 2 ).

But on the other hand, species of the the A. diplotaenia complex are not easy to get and usually quite pricey, especially if you intend to buy many specimens. Plus, younger ones would indeed fit into the mouth of a discus, even though i could never witness any predatory behavior by my discus in that regard. So i'd probably go for a colony of wild caught or wild form Mikrogeophagus ramirezi.

 

[Mike Wise]

Concrete is mostly lime which will harden the water.

 

[anewbie]

I prefer Apistos over Rams. But I did envision 1, maybe 2, pairs of Rams among a larger colony of Apistos.

It is difficult to take this statement seriously because Apisto is a genus with many different species that have different behavior and level of aggression as well as looks. This ignores the fact that many species of Apisto require significantly cooler water.

Now i can grant you that there might be a specific species of apisto that is compatible and prefer warmer water but just because it is a species of apisto doesn't mean it will be suitable for a colony or more than 1 male.

 

[Toby_H]

Concrete is mostly lime which will harden the water.

After Concrete is fully cured, typically within 28 days, it is inert. In giant structures where it's very thick it can take much longer, but in home aquariums we are dealing with quite small structures (comparatively).

I currently have 3 aquariums with full concrete backgrounds and several others with medium sized inserts. My local city water (Charlotte, NC) is very soft with a PH of around 6.5. These items don't buffer my water at all.

 

[anewbie]

After Concrete is fully cured, typically within 28 days, it is inert. In giant structures where it's very thick it can take much longer, but in home aquariums we are dealing with quite small structures (comparatively).

I currently have 3 aquariums with full concrete backgrounds and several others with medium sized inserts. My local city water (Charlotte, NC) is very soft with a PH of around 6.5. These items don't buffer my water at all.

I would take periodic measurement of ec to see if it drifts up over time.

 

[Toby_H]

I would take periodic measurement of ec to see if it drifts up over time.

They've been set up for years. Cured concrete is inert. It will not affect water chemistry.