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how to deworm wild caught discus

MacZ

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Germany
I think Dr. Eduardo Schimidt-Focke beat Stendker to the use of beefheart by around a couple of decades. Schimidt-Focke developed the classic red turquoise strain by cross breeding the best wild royal blue haraldi and likewise the best aquifasciata. Then he selectively bred the best resulting hybrids and the rest is history. Stendker mostly worked on improving them but the good Dr was the pioneer.
That's really interesting for contextualizing it. I really appreciate that.




I'm confused; i was under the impression that orange cameta should be kept 82-84 range with heckel warmer. Here is one thread with some references but before i decided to purchase them i found several other articles with high 70s sometime for triggering spawning.
I've come to the conclusion it's just about supporting the digestion of mammal meat. And people have transferred this to wild discus. Additionally I'd expect what happened to other species too, that people only knew the dry season tempertures of their ranges expecting this to be the year round temp.
It really is a strange situation how discus keepers often push for high temp, while people keeping fish from the exact same habitats either simulate seasonal changes or keep their fish at lower mean temperatures.
I haven't found any other explanation than the above.
 

anewbie

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1,424
I want to make sure i understand that the consensus is that 78 is fine for wild discus (which is too cold for rams); is there a particular species of dwarf cichild - maybe megaparta ?
 

MacZ

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3,119
Location
Germany
I'm certain 25°C are completely fine. Combined with the usual super soft water and a good diet sans mammal meat I would prefer keeping them in those conditions to high temp.

About dwarf cichlids: Look up what shares the habitat with the discus variety you're aiming for.

I think the choices are manifold.
 

anewbie

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1,424
About dwarf cichlids: Look up what shares the habitat with the discus variety you're aiming for.
This of course good advice 'cept i have no clue how to do it. that is the guy thinks they came from Trombetas region but i have no clue how to backward match that into dwarf cichild. also the ones i get in the spring will likely be from a different locality.

a google search mentions a. kullander and a. regan and maybe a. angayuara (which i never heard of)

isn't regan now borelli ?
 

MacZ

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3,119
Location
Germany
Look up some river names from that region on google maps, then use the list on Tom's homepage. He has one listing the rivers. I'm not at home right now else I'd be a bit more actively helping.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
736
Location
Clarkston, WA
Don't worry too much about it. Because discus have been far more commercially valuable than Apistos for so long they have often been transplanted by people in the business so collecting them is made easier and as closer to the major distribution foci. The classic example of this phenomenon are the Rio Nanay Green Discus. Never trust a fisherman. This from a hard core trout fly fisherman.
 
Last edited:

martin_c

New Member
5 Year Member
Messages
24
That's really interesting for contextualizing it. I really appreciate that.





I've come to the conclusion it's just about supporting the digestion of mammal meat. And people have transferred this to wild discus. Additionally I'd expect what happened to other species too, that people only knew the dry season tempertures of their ranges expecting this to be the year round temp.
It really is a strange situation how discus keepers often push for high temp, while people keeping fish from the exact same habitats either simulate seasonal changes or keep their fish at lower mean temperatures.
I haven't found any other explanation than the above.
Hi,
I've been wondering about this too, since i joined the discus keepers.
Just like you i couldn't understand why they would need higher temperatures than other species from the same area. But since there are people like Heiko Bleher or Oliver Lukanus reporting them living in average temperatures above 28°C there must be something to it.

Maybe it's because discus live in waters that are more exposed to the sunlight and less covered by canopy compared to the Igarapes where many Apistogrammas live in? But i have no clue, i've never been to the Amazon myself.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
736
Location
Clarkston, WA
Hi,
I've been wondering about this too, since i joined the discus keepers.
Just like you i couldn't understand why they would need higher temperatures than other species from the same area. But since there are people like Heiko Bleher or Oliver Lukanus reporting them living in average temperatures above 28°C there must be something to it.

Maybe it's because discus live in waters that are more exposed to the sunlight and less covered by canopy compared to the Igarapes where many Apistogrammas live in? But i have no clue, i've never been to the Amazon myself.
Good old Heiko Bleher. I bought Bleher's Discus vol.s I and II when they came out. I found Vol to be excellent. Vol. II, not so much Never been able to visit wild discus habitats but Bleher literally grew up sloshing through them. His analyzing the stomach contents of so many discus then sharing his findings helped me appreciate more how they eat a lot of crud to get what they're looking for. Crud is actually a useful component of their diet. They get mineral particles and bulk.
Whether in more exposed to the sun or edges under tangles,the igurapes are usually cut off from major stream flows. That has to help maintain all the temps higher as if the main flows of the Rio Xingu or Rio Tapajos, to cite 2 examples, of where discus are found, weren't high enough. Even in the rapids of these 2 streams where many valuable places are found can exceed 86. I used to raise several 100's of L134 from 5 wild caught in only a 20 long breeding tank. Went on to breed my own F1 L134's. So it never made sense to me to try keep discus below 84. Discus were my main interests and all my other fish had to be able to thrive without having to adjust.
Oliver Lucanus is one sharp fish guy. I trust him and all of these guys have well developed egos; my own over inflated one comfortably enjoys bumping up against theirs. Never met a truly knowledgeable wild discus person who would pretend to be humble.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,424
How about Krobia Xinguensis as a compatible tank mate? I realize the krobia would prefer much stronger current but temp wise the xing river seems to go up to 90 with the low end around 78-79.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
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736
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Clarkston, WA
K. xinguensis would probably be fine. As I've mentioned to you in pers. com, I lean towards smaller types of the Geophagus surinamensis. They are colorful, peaceful and have thrived when I've kept them with my own wild discus. I don't know how you have planned to aquascape the 220. I wouldn't try to cover the bottom with plants. And if sticking with SA aquatic plants, especially any med to large varieties of Echinodorus, I'd recommend potting them individually, then conceal their pots. If Anubias are used then I'd grow them epiphytically, ie super glued to bogwood.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,424
K. xinguensis would probably be fine. As I've mentioned to you in pers. com, I lean towards smaller types of the Geophagus surinamensis. They are colorful, peaceful and have thrived when I've kept them with my own wild discus. I don't know how you have planned to aquascape the 220. I wouldn't try to cover the bottom with plants. And if sticking with SA aquatic plants, especially any med to large varieties of Echinodorus, I'd recommend potting them individually, then conceal their pots. If Anubias are used then I'd grow them epiphytically, ie super glued to bogwood.
Yea the tank was scaped 2 months ago; unfortunately it has plants growing in pool filter sand; why do you recommend pots?

If i went with geo i would try to go with something smaller like mirablis (not sure of their temp range); they are hard to find but 1/2 the size of the suirnamensis.

I'll take a picture of the 240 after i get the discus (probalby next week); the discus will go into a 40 qt aquarium; the 240 has 20 glowlights and 40 cardinals.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
736
Location
Clarkston, WA
Whenever I have used pool filter sand as my substrate I kept the average depth close to 3 inches. A 4 X 4 inch rectangular pot is about 4-1/4 inches high. I used smaller pieces of bogwood and or pieces of petrified wood to help conceal exposed rims of pots. Typically I've used some Eco-Complete as the substrate in the pots. These are easy to fertilize as needed while not being concerned about the sand. I often have free floating Ceratophyllum or Najas as removable nitrogen sinks.

I use a lot of filtration. In a 125 gal, I used a wet/dry filter with 20 working gallons and a submersible water pump rated at 1000 gph. I also use a canister filter rated at 250 gph. I try to change about 60% of the systems total water volume about every 4th day.
The above described setups has consistently yield the results I've wanted. Happy healthy fish, naturally pairing and breeding. I've had good results using Spartan, bare 20 inch cubes with forced pairing. One of these ways is more pleasing and the other better suited for productivity. As always, temp was 84*F.

G. mirabilis appears to be generally suitable, should you so choose. I don't know how large mature adult get. Back when I kept G. cf suramensis, there weren't so many similar described species. I do suspect most of those I've kept were some Peruvian species. Approximate places of origin are probably a bit more accurate these days than when I was buying directly from trans-shippers.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,424
Whenever I have used pool filter sand as my substrate I kept the average depth close to 3 inches. A 4 X 4 inch rectangular pot is about 4-1/4 inches high. I used smaller pieces of bogwood and or pieces of petrified wood to help conceal exposed rims of pots. Typically I've used some Eco-Complete as the substrate in the pots. These are easy to fertilize as needed while not being concerned about the sand. I often have free floating Ceratophyllum or Najas as removable nitrogen sinks.

I use a lot of filtration. In a 125 gal, I used a wet/dry filter with 20 working gallons and a submersible water pump rated at 1000 gph. I also use a canister filter rated at 250 gph. I try to change about 60% of the systems total water volume about every 4th day.
The above described setups has consistently yield the results I've wanted. Happy healthy fish, naturally pairing and breeding. I've had good results using Spartan, bare 20 inch cubes with forced pairing. One of these ways is more pleasing and the other better suited for productivity. As always, temp was 84*F.

G. mirabilis appears to be generally suitable, should you so choose. I don't know how large mature adult get. Back when I kept G. cf suramensis, there weren't so many similar described species. I do suspect most of those I've kept were some Peruvian species. Approximate places of origin are probably a bit more accurate these days than when I was buying directly from trans-shippers.
The aquarium has a sump and several sponge filters; the sump size is approx 80 gallons.My crude understanding is g. suramensis is around 12 inch and g. mirabilis or g. neambi are around 6-7 inches with sex and care having an impact. neambi are more common than mirabilis.
-
What i don't understand is why you use a pot - not that you do use a pot. The substrate is around 2 to 2 1/2 inches. There is quite a bit of bog wood; i might had some flat rocks across the wood at a later date (ad-hoc caves); but i haven't tested the rocks i have for leaching yet. This is my 550 (black subttrate) and 450 (pool fitler sand); most of my tanks end up with a similar scape but the 550 is a little different as the vals are on the far end and the near end is more open; i always know when it is dinner time since everyone collects by my desk like now:

r3.jpgr2.jpg

i always know when it is dinner time since everyone collects by my desk like now:

r1.jpg
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
736
Location
Clarkston, WA
I'm a big fan of Mesonauta so it's a treat to see them given enough space. I kept a group of 10 with a similar number of wild P. scalare. Lively tank, both species breeding and lots of dynamic territorial behaviors...why I like SA Cichlids
If you pot your larger plants in more porous substrate they will grow faster and adding a fertilizer to it, as needed, wastes little. Pot sizes ought to be chosen on the basis of the needs and ultimate of specific species of concern. Being able to cover the pots allows for protecting the plants from diggers, Cichlids, large loaches and WHY. It also facilitates moving your most valued plants within the aquarium without causing them any undo stress.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,424
The discus arrived last night and this is how they look (in 40b with ro water @ 85); the guy still recommends meds but i haven't treated them yet and will wait for advice. I did put in a cube of free dired blackworms last night but they did not touch it. Also a little bug bite which i think they ate some of it. I'll probably do a 25% water change 2 times a week (temp issue since the ro water is around 74); and testing for ammonia daily (the two large sponge filters are mature from another aquarium). Let me know if you want better pictures:
d3.jpg


I'm really happy with these guys in person they look very nice and healthy.

This is their eventual home it is a 240 (72 inch long, 24 inch wide, 24 inches high); it has a drip system (1gallon per hour) and contains ro water. The plants are not in pots (no offense but i set it up 2 months ago before you mentioned pots) and has cardinals and glowlight for about a month - add two gold nuggest (171) last night and will add some more cardinals. Eventually 8 discus total and maybe one of the smaller geo (thinking nembai or mirablis). You can;'t see it but up close the plants are showing reasonable growth and transition to submersed form; a little concern abut the anubia on the right - as a leaf came off - the rhizome doesn't really show rot but watching it closely.

d2.jpg
 

rasmusW

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
474
The discus arrived last night and this is how they look (in 40b with ro water @ 85); the guy still recommends meds but i haven't treated them yet and will wait for advice. I did put in a cube of free dired blackworms last night but they did not touch it. Also a little bug bite which i think they ate some of it. I'll probably do a 25% water change 2 times a week (temp issue since the ro water is around 74); and testing for ammonia daily (the two large sponge filters are mature from another aquarium). Let me know if you want better pictures:
View attachment 13980

I'm really happy with these guys in person they look very nice and healthy.

This is their eventual home it is a 240 (72 inch long, 24 inch wide, 24 inches high); it has a drip system (1gallon per hour) and contains ro water. The plants are not in pots (no offense but i set it up 2 months ago before you mentioned pots) and has cardinals and glowlight for about a month - add two gold nuggest (171) last night and will add some more cardinals. Eventually 8 discus total and maybe one of the smaller geo (thinking nembai or mirablis). You can;'t see it but up close the plants are showing reasonable growth and transition to submersed form; a little concern abut the anubia on the right - as a leaf came off - the rhizome doesn't really show rot but watching it closely.
Great looking fish.
One day… oooone day i want to keep discus again.
Good luck with them.

-r
 

Apistomaster

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Hi newbie,
Your discus look fine to me. I would feed them very lightly 2 to 3 times a day during the next week to ten days. I'd recommend feeding them frozen blood worms. This would be the best of the easiest to obtain fresh frozen foods to start with. They are almost certainly already accustomed to them Once they are cleaning up all of the bloodworms within a maximum of 8 minutes, I would begin offering about 5 granules per fish of Tetra Color Bits or whatever they're calling them these days, once a day. If you have access to live adult brine shrimp or live blackworms, use them now.
Be very careful to avoid overfeeding during the first week. I often see newly acquired discus being fed too much, too often. My recommendations will ensure they receive sufficient food and avoid potential water pollution. Their appetites will quickly return and they will be constantly grazing and sifting the sand for leftovers. Gradually expand their diets and quantities based upon their behavior. You can't go wrong with light feeding to start.

I think your discus will feel more at ease if you sprinkled a thin layer of white pool filter sand on the bottom. One or two pounds of quartz sand should be sufficient. Maybe some floating plants or a handful of Najas aka "guppy grass" would be helpful. Add a few branches of bogwood that extend into the mid to upper third to finish the temporary furnishing.
Congratulations, you are now a wild discus keeper.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,424
Hi newbie,
Your discus look fine to me. I would feed them very lightly 2 to 3 times a day during the next week to ten days. I'd recommend feeding them frozen blood worms. This would be the best of the easiest to obtain fresh frozen foods to start with. They are almost certainly already accustomed to them Once they are cleaning up all of the bloodworms within a maximum of 8 minutes, I would begin offering about 5 granules per fish of Tetra Color Bits or whatever they're calling them these days, once a day. If you have access to live adult brine shrimp or live blackworms, use them now.
Be very careful to avoid overfeeding during the first week. I often see newly acquired discus being fed too much, too often. My recommendations will ensure they receive sufficient food and avoid potential water pollution. Their appetites will quickly return and they will be constantly grazing and sifting the sand for leftovers. Gradually expand their diets and quantities based upon their behavior. You can't go wrong with light feeding to start.

I think your discus will feel more at ease if you sprinkled a thin layer of white pool filter sand on the bottom. One or two pounds of quartz sand should be sufficient. Maybe some floating plants or a handful of Najas aka "guppy grass" would be helpful. Add a few branches of bogwood that extend into the mid to upper third to finish the temporary furnishing.
Congratulations, you are now a wild discus keeper.
how long should i wait to see if they have parasite or need any other preventive meds; i.e, till i can put them in the larger aquarium. I'll check my closet for substrate; it will be a few days before i can get frozen bloodworm or live brine shrimp due to holidays et all.
 

Apistomaster

Active Member
5 Year Member
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736
Location
Clarkston, WA
I would let them acclimate and provide the bit of structure I described previously. Let them go without meds for now. I am very surprised you didn't have the frozen bloodworms in your freezer. They may not be interested in any commercial prepared foods at first. I would only offer Tetra Bits and only what they're willing to eat immediately. Leave no leftovers
As a reminder, I have had good success with keeping and breeding wild discus relying on few foods: frozen bloodworms, earthworm sticks, Tetra Color Bits and live blackworms. The later seems to have become very difficult to obtain and why I suggested live adult Artemia. Just be very judicious with the foods you have until you can obtain what foods you currently lack. Must say, I'm scratching my head over this oversight.

As long as the new discus are in the quarantine tank you can take your time deciding whether or not treatment is warranted. Getting them off to a good start in qt is 90% of the battle.
 

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