How many Apistos in 700 liters?

[Olorin]

Hello, this is my first appearance here so some breif info first. I havent had any fishes last 10 years, before that I had the usual mix. Some dwarf cichlids, tetras, corydoras, Tanganyikas. Now I am older wiser and can afford a serious tank. I am planning to install a 700-900 liters tank in our new living room.

I want to hold as many family groups of Apistogramma in there as possible. The tanks will be filled with lots of roots and plants for visual impact, but also to make up territoriums for the fishes.

I have not decied on a tank yet (maybe I will order something custom). So I need some advice on the best bottom proportions of the tank to hold many family groups. Is it better to have a bottom surface of 200 x 60 or 150 x 80 (measures in centimeters). The depth of the tank will be about 60 for the sakes of plants.

And what Apistos should I select to be able to keep many? I like Agassizii, Luelengi, Hongsloi, Trifasciata and Pucallpaensis best if I go purely by looks

Also worth pointing out. I am not after breeding effectively. I don't mind if the spawn occasionally would get eaten. But I do want the fishes to behave naturally (Some mild bulling and strife can be condoned as long as I don't end up with dead fish, it is natural behaviour after all).

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Olorin,

I think the general rule of thumb is 1sq/ft per female. 200cm x 60cm is about 6ft x 2ft if I figure it out correctly. That would mean you could theoreticly keep 12 females. Even so, you could probably keep only 2 different species. They would probably stake out territories at each end of the tank. I don't think another territory could be managed in the middle, but who knows. If you're lucky and you set up your tank with multiple, isolated "territories", you might manage 3 species.

Choose species from different complexes, such as borellii and cacatuoides. This way they would be less likely to hybridize and you can tell even the females apart. I've had OF cacatuoides spawn in a small 10 gallon tank with 3m and 4f! But they were raised together since they were young. Your best bet would be to introduce ALL the fish to the new tank at the same time and while they're all young. This allows them to be accustomed to each other while they mature. Also if the fish are all introduced at the same time, you won't have problems with existing fish trying claim most of the tank as their own territory.

By family groups, did you mean complexes? Or did you just mean multiple mothers caring for their own individual families?

I've currently got some panduro in a colony set up (2m 4f). Three of the females are currently raising families. The odd male and the extra female are often harrassed, but not beaten. I'm going to move them into their own 10 gallon tank to make them more comfortable and raise a family of their own.

I've also kept viejita, borellii, and cacatuoides successfully in a colony setting. Colony settings are cool and I think the fish behave in a more natural way in a colony. It's pretty much how they live in the wild.

Michael

 

[Olorin]

Thank you cootwarm. With families and did not think complexes, but I sort of hoped for it. SFrom you answer it seems to me that a longer and mor narrow tank would be be best. A more square bottom surface would not help me keep more fish if they like to set up their territories from a corner. Unless a big komplex of roots or stones could make them feel "cornered".

Unless somebody strongly objects as it is now I will try to get 3 females and one male each of Agassizii, Luelengi and Pucallpaensis if I can. And rather young ones too and introduce them at the same time.

Somebody also gave me the advice that a few Corydoras and other fish would keep them occupied from harrassing each other too much. What do you think of also dropping in 6 Discuses and a school of some Hyphessobrycon let us say 25 or so. A good idea?

 

[Mike Wise]

Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis is a very small species & would probably have problems competing for territory with the other 2 species. You can often have a open substrate spawning species, like Laetacara, Cleithracara, or Mikrogeophagus altispinosus, do well in a large tank with apistos. They use different kinds of breeding sites.

 

[Greg PL]

Olorin,
you may want to make the tank quite low. 40cm water level is more than enough for apistos, and you will be able to give enough light to the plants, without investing heavily in HQI or sth.
50cm width should be enough. the longer the tank the more fish you could put in it.

pucalpaensis, trifasciata and borelli could go well together. they are small species and not that aggressive. I think I would choose 2 bigger species in larger q-ties. 3-4 males and 4-7 females of each. most of apistos will fare well in soft, neutral water, but some could be a pain in the neck with their pH demands. my idea would be to stick to those, who occure simpatricaly in Amazonia.

Roemer's Atlas has a nice desctription of natural habitat of a black water stream with different species' colonies mapped. there should be some other books in German going into biotope details. I would read all I there is before starting this project, to be sure I do it right from the start.

good luck!

 

[Olorin]

Thank you for you input guys. For Mike, I can opt out Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis for Hongsloi or Trifasciata if it comes to that, I like a few just about as much.

To Greg. Yes 40 cm height is sensible when it comes to plants and light, but I have not quite ruled out have some discuses and they loong plain silly in shallow whater in my eyes. They might endure, but it feels cramped. On the other hand I am not sure about the discuses in the tank. And I would like to have some tall plants like Myriophyllum. And about the widht of the tank I am also a bit concerned that a BNT background (which is a must have more or less) will make it feel very tight and not look too so I will not go narrower than 60 cm. But going 80 wide would be a waste of space?

Roemer's Atlas? Do you got the ISBN number for it?

 

[Greg PL]

you should find the reference to Roemer's Cichlid Atlas 1 on the forum.
or you can check at www.apistogrammaidiots.com.

the wider the tank the more natural look can be achieved. but please remember, that natural look may mean, that you will only see some fish from time to time I have a 60cm wide tank, which is quite dark in design and with lots of bogwood. On average I see less than half of the fish in it. it's great for me to sit calmly and wait, but my wife and friends are less patient "are there any fish there?" is usualy the first question I get.

 

[dr.fishy]

The Romer's Atlas = Baensch Cichlid Atlas, Vol. 1

Hi just a thought after reading this post about the atlas. I have been looking for a good book on west africans but this atlas seems plainly clear to be about everything else also. To those of you that have had experience with this book it's also known as "Baensch Cichlid Atlas, Vol. 1" right?, what is the section on the west african cichlids like? Is it pretty good overall knowledge, or just small amounts about each species with no great detail? I have been considering the Lamboj book for those jewels but I have not made up my mind yet, (See post in the Longe here at this site).

Thanks Guys!
And good luck to you on your new tank Olorin, I had a tank once that about matched your dimensions your considering, and it worked out for my smaller south american cichlids very well, they enjoyed the copious space from front to back with 30 inches or 76.2 cm.
Dr. Fishy

 

[Olorin]

I am with you there Greg_pl and dr.fishy. Fish will hide from vision from time to time, but for me that is a plus. It adds some exitement, very natural indeed. Sometime you go out in the forest and see a bird, next time there is a moose. I like that. I think I have made up my choice now. There is a 900 liters from akvastabil that is 200x75 cm. Now the next snag is to decide on what kind of lighting. Any ideas?

 

[dr.fishy]

Lighting IMHO

I prefer the lighting to match my surroundings of the room in looks so I build some sort of canopy that hangs or is mounted on a framework which in turn is mounted to the back of the tank stand (this has the added effect of letting you get "into" the tank easily for cleaning/feeding). As for the power output and type of light bulbs, I would consider the fishes first in this setup and pick plants that get along with their needs for security and then decorative needs last. ie High power is not totally needed for small fishes as it usually makes to many shadow in the tank and smaller fish don't appriciate the shadows as it reminds them too much of something that might be attacking them from above,, like a human hand going between the lights and the tank cover (if their is one) would produce a significant shadow they might feel threathened by. IMHO lower lighting if possible and then increase during the main 4-6 hours daytime for the plants.
Dr. Fishy

 

[Mike Wise]

To those of you that have had experience with this book it's also known as "Baensch Cichlid Atlas, Vol. 1" right?, what is the section on the west african cichlids like?

Well, I guess it could be described as a Baensch Atlas for dwarf cichlids since it is published by the same publisher (Mergus Verlag GmbH) & is the same size as the Baensch Atlases. The format is quite different, however. It is actually titled "Cichlid Atlas, vol. 1: Natural History of South American Dwarf Cichlids". As you can see by the title, it deals only with dwarf cichlids from South America.

 

[dr.fishy]

I guess the bookstore was wrong...

This is why I called it what I did at amazon.com they have the below information about the book. Notice the name they use and who its by.
I believe you more since you have been in this fish hobby a lot longer than amazon
Thanks Mike!

Baensch/Mergus Cichlid Atlas, Vol. 1
by Uwe Romer



List Price: $69.99
Price: $69.99 & This item ships for FREE with Super Saver Shipping. See details.
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours
Only 4 left in stock--order soon (more on the way).

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm sure it's the same book. You can get it cheaper from David Soares (www.apistogrammaidiots.com) who lives just up the road from you in Sisters.

 

[dr.fishy]

Tanks again!

I'll go to the site and see about ordering soon.
Dr. Fishy

 

[Olorin]

Ok, dr_fishy. I see your point and I think I can pick out some very decorative plants with medium to low light demands too. But I was thinking more in terms of actual armatures and even bulbs if anybody had suggetions about it. There are many brands out there and I am pretty clueless about it now.

 

[dr.fishy]

Lighting Q's

Hi Olorin
Sorry I missread your question.
I have not had to buy any lightbulbs for my lights for almost 6 years since I bought a box of 20 x 4' standard output last time I bought any, and they are the only type I like for the tanks with lower light needs (I like the Full spectrum or 50/50 chroma type). Try using the search button near the top of the forum page and use the words "lighting" or "bulb" for the params.
There are some new brands out since I last bought some bulbs(I still have a couple of "vita lite" bulbs left for this use which kinda dates me huh!). I do not use any MH since the light is to bright for any tanks less than 24 inches tall, and even then the fishes seem "flighty" under them when I come near the tank. Plus with my "canopy style of hood" the entire room gets illumiated, and a glare in my eyes just does not work for me.
I have never used more than 1-2 watts per gallon of water so there is not a whole bunch of light there and it should be sufficient for the low to medium light level your looking for. It is my belief that the fishes are the main theme in this tank your setting up so giving consideration to their needs for a subdued light level with hiding places is not going to need VHO or MH, just normal flouresent bulbs should work. Getting the kind of light you enjoy the colors of the fishes under can be tricky without seeing them working. Several companies sell these including the online sources for bulb manufacturing just find one that is closer to your neck of the woods then maybe paln an outting one day and stop by.
Try and see the bulbs your planning on buying in action at a LFS first if possible before you buy them.
As a side note here's a handy little page I found for many purposes:
http://www.metric-conversions.org/volume/gallons-to-liters.htm
Hope this information sheds some light on the topic for you :biggrin: .
Dr. Fishy

 

[dr.fishy]

Addendum!

Oops sorry about the link it should be this:
http://www.metric-conversions.org/conversion-calculators.htm
Dr. Fishy

 

[Olorin]

Thank you. It seems like your about as updated in lamps as I am I haven't had a tank up and running for at least 10 years now. Back then MH wasn't even on the chart. You might say that what is up on my agenda now is to find out if standard akvarium light tubes has progressed enough to be what I want or if I have to get something more specifik. I do like spotlight effect for the esthetics so I do have some initial doubts about tubes.

 

[dr.fishy]

Updated Lighting.

Yeah it's pretty easy to let the conquerer Time eat away at knowledge. . I find the things that work don't need changing. You mentioned the questioning statement of

"You might say that what is up on my agenda now is to find out if standard akvarium light tubes has progressed enough to be what I want or if I have to get something more specifik"

What progression(s) would you like exactly? What specifics are you looking for besides water's looks? I agree that the wavy look given on the floor of the tank is excellent to view, but at what costs? Expensive, hot, harder to regulate algae, flighty fish.(IME not worth the tradoffs). A combo hood could work out for your needs, and here is a link to one of what I suppose is many co's on the web selling them.
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_lighting__index.asp?CartId=

The only differences that might have come along are in the names of the brands available and the fact that since 10 years ago VHO and HO are taking up space on store shelves. (I'm not hip on them).

On the idea of lighting with a spotlight, You could try using a simple incandescent growlux type bulb for the plants growth if thats your reason. If hung in the canopy about a foot from one end, and setup with a timer of its own it could come on when you want to see the fish with this light. It, of course, would not be as bright a light as the MH type but it would not increase the heat in the room either, a toss up.
Dr. Fishy

 

[Olorin]

Actually we are getting slightly OT here, but hey it is my thread so what teh heck Actually I am not sure what I want besides a natural look and healthy plants (I hate it when they look like yesterdays spinache).

So to sum things the optimumt to achive ought to be the wavy and irregular soft sunlight that is naturally achived by the canopy of trees about the streams out there. Thinking about it that is a tricky thing to do. It would mean a big light source and an irregularly shifting mesh of some kind between the light and the tank. So since that is more or less ruled out I want to set up an even baselight for the tank and add some spotlight to light some thickets of plants a bit.

I am not the pro here, but to me that would mean that the fishes can retreat to darker parts of the tank if they like that (after all we are talking 900 liter or so). If set up so there will be 3 zones of say about 200 liters which are darkish lit between 2 more lit up zones. Still they they will be easily spooked dr.fishy?