Is 48inchx16inch large enough for two groups of ortegai?

[anewbie]

Yea all fishes are different but all cockatoo are mean. There are some other options opening up - someone has Ladislao which seem interesting (@Mazan how did your Ladisalo do?) and Balsopuerto which don't interest me at all. I think if i could pick anything it would be wc borelli but no one has those.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Can you import the borellii yourself?

 

[anewbie]

Can you import the borellii yourself?

No - i wouldn't know how or who to contact or pretty much anything about importing. Also when I asked a few folks why they don't import them they said they weren't available. I got the impression they were not allowed to be exported for some reason.

 

[Mike Wise]

Also intraspecies aggression is much worse in female apistos than males. A. ortegai is surprisingly aggressive for an apisto, so I personally would hesitate to add more the 4 in a 65 - and only if properly laid out.

 

[anewbie]

Hum. I'm actually fairly happy with my sp winkelfleck. From Tom's page they are fairly passive species - any idea on a reasonable number of male/females in a 48x16. Again i realize scapeing makes a big difference. I think right now my options (based on availability) are trio ortegai; 2 pairs of inka or panduro or 3 m 5 f (guess) winkelfleck and build a colony of winkelfleck.

thoughts? Am i too optimisic on being able to keep 2 pairs of complex nijjensi fish in their given their potential for large territories ?

I can definitely build up a fair amount of drift wood in the middle till it is 12 to 14 inch high (tank is 18 inch); it wouldn't prevent the fishes from roaming further but it would create a natural incentive boundary. Though i'd have to be sure to put a little bit of food in both side to discourage venturing into another territory.

 

[Apistoguy52]

Seems a bit optimistic to me. No disrespect, but I’ve not seen a tank complex enough to house multiple pair/harem hierarchies in any of your pictures. I love Mike Wise’s best case/ general rule of thumb more than anyone, but in my experience, you need 25% of the tank volume dedicated to hard structure (wood), and another 25% of the volume filled with leaves to be plus EV over time.

 

[anewbie]

Seems a bit optimistic to me. No disrespect, but I’ve not seen a tank complex enough to house multiple pair/harem hierarchies in any of your pictures. I love Mike Wise’s best case/ general rule of thumb more than anyone, but in my experience, you need 25% of the tank volume dedicated to hard structure (wood), and another 25% of the volume filled with leaves to be plus EV over time.

I'm not offended - the only aquarium i have with any real complexity is the 48x30 and it is hard to photograph; it has 8 (3m 5f) bitaeniata; but truth be told the most i've seen at one time is 5 (3m 2f); it is kind of hard to see in there and the few times i spotted the more reclusive ones have been when they stuck their nose out during feeding time. However it does make me aware that feeding is a real issue as frequently they will enter the dominant male territory and there will be quite a bit of flaring which i consider unhealthy. Oh well i'll have to think on things.

 

[anewbie]

So this is my first pass; i'm not over joyed with the drift wood selection; so i'm going to let it bake and try to get some more interesting pieces. Once that is settled i'll put in an inch or two of leaves to bake; if you have comments please feel free to advise - the lights are just on so i can take a picture and aren't setup also there are no plants in there yet - i have a lot of floaters i can 'migrate' from other aquariums but i'll need to get something interesting for the bottom:

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The piece further to the right is still floating because the bottom is hollowed out so it is anchored by the linear piece resting on it until it becomes water logged. The piece next to the linear piece (3rd from the right) is actually quite large front to back 17 inches and top to bottom 16 inches. I have a long linear piece and a jumbo piece way too large for this aquarium left in my closet.

 

[anewbie]

This is an updated picture if anyone have any comments on the layout. I added approx 20 pencil fishes a couple of days ago but the ortegai won't be added till next week so if you see some critical issue i can still make changes !

 

[MacZ]

Left side could use some more wood. Otherwise I like it.

 

[anewbie]

All right i added a bit of something to that side but it will be several months before i take another picture of since it is currently 'black' from the tannis.
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This is the sister aquarium that i hope to put in 2 pairs of I. Bimaculata; My understanding from the guy importing them (he has them) they have been very peaceful in small groups so i hope there is enough room for 2 pairs. I think it will be around 6 weeks - he qt things for 2 or 3 weeks after he receives them. I'll add some pencil fishes this week; and a couple of leaves and give the plants sometime to get established before it gets darker. *I think* it works fine with ro water; my discus tank which has a ph monitor has been staying at 5.9 without much effort. The biggest headache is i have too many aquariums.

oops pictures:

 

[anewbie]

I don't have good pictures yet but here are my current observation after having them for a small bit (6 weeks). I have three - in theory 2 female and 1 male but i suck at confirmation of their sexes. They are around 1 1/4 inch to 1 1/2 inch so i believe they could be sexually mature. One stays mostly on one side and the other two on the other side - there is occasional chasing but not too bad and frequently the distance between them can be a leaf. During feeding they can freely eat with almost no chasing (my winkelfleck at time are a lot worse but they are clearly older).

Anyway i'm curious to see if their aggression level increases as they age. Certainly right now i would say they border on passive at least when not breeding.

 

[anewbie]

My current observation:
At this stage aggression has been relatively minor mostly with brief chase by the male. About a week ago based on the tank layout and fishes 'zone' i added a third female (so 1 male 3 female); the female at this point have not shown much aggression among each other with perhaps brief signaling. One female and the male mostly stay on one said with the other two on the other side. Naturally if they attempt or begin to breed i expect the aggression to rise. This is one of the fishes - not sure of sex - from the size i would think they are 'able' to breed as in sexually mature but a bit surprise by the complete lack of colouring which suggest they have a bit to go in growth.

 

[anewbie]

I don't have any pictures - i should probably try to get some. It seems all 4 are developing some colour on the dorsal fin and all 4 seem to mostly get along - frequently when feeding i find the 3 females grouped up and the male a foot away. I've seen no real indication of strong aggression esp among the females - an occasional short chase now and then with the male but nothing remotely excessive or vicious.

 

[anewbie]

one of the females has eggs and i'm waiting to see if they hatch. I'm mostly posting this as a comment on aggression level: background - the aquarium is 16x48 (inch); with 1 male 2 female 1 unknown. What I'm seeing is the female with eggs has taken an area of approx 12 to 15 square inches - her eggs appear to be on the underside of a rock in a corner; the male aggression did increase towards the other two occupants and he pushed them to the last ~20 inch of the aquarium - but the other two mostly hang out together over there anyway - so beyond that i'm not seeing a lot of horrible aggression and i'm curious if it gets worse when (if) she brings frys out. I guess the biggest change is the male was pushed closer to the other two as he is no longer hanging out on the left side as he did before she laid eggs.
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The biggest question is what species of fish do i have - from mike comment they do not look like a. ortega pablo (which is what they were sold as) due to pattern near tail.

 

[Mike Wise]

So far everyone is behaving as expected. Once the female brings out the freeswimming fry, the brood territory will probably expand, depending on food sources for the fry and layout of the tank.

"Pablo" is just a commercial name used to make the fish new, different and more expensive than other A. ortegai. If your fish have any pattern on the tail (or near it, except for the double caudal patch), then it is not the real A. ortegai.

 

[anewbie]

So far everyone is behaving as expected. Once the female brings out the freeswimming fry, the brood territory will probably expand, depending on food sources for the fry and layout of the tank.

"Pablo" is just a commercial name used to make the fish new, different and more expensive than other A. ortegai. If your fish have any pattern on the tail (or near it, except for the double caudal patch), then it is not the real A. ortegai.

You looked at the picture of them in another thread and found the tail portion of the female a bit odd; so i guess that makes them some sort of cf. ortegai.

 

[Mike Wise]

... or a hybrid of 2 (or more) species.

 

[anewbie]

... or a hybrid of 2 (or more) species.

Yea I think i suggested that but they were wild caught - though as you noted the catchers have been mixing species to make them easier to catch - i'll post an updated picture of the female when she comes out. I'm presuming at this point she has wrigglers and moved them to a more secure location as she is no longer visible.

 

[anewbie]

@Mike Wise @Frank Hättich here is an updated picture of one of the female in case it helps with species identification; also all three female have turned bright yellow and are aggressively guarding areas which makes feeding more challenging as i have to provide each area food to prevent conflict. The male is not welcomed in any of the three areas and is regulated to a being under a leaf in the front left corner.