Is 48inchx16inch large enough for two groups of ortegai?

[anewbie]

Aquaticclarity has some Ortega for sale. My understanding is these are more aggressive so my thought is an aquarium 48x16 is not large enough for two groups but wanted to check. These are wc if that matters. The tank is nominally 65 gallon but a little narrow due to table width. I have two of these but one is reserved for Ivanka b. Which is said to be less violent than Ivanka a. (Rather keep all my fingers).

Thanks.

 

[Mike Wise]

I guess it really depends on what you call a "group" and how the tank is decorated.

 

[anewbie]

What i call a group is 4 females and 2 males - they are being sold as trio. Yea decoration will matter and i'll take a photo before i add the fishes - i guess what i am asking is if the decoration is decent is there enough space for 2 males; i could try to reduce the females to 2 or 3 - if he sells 4 i could put the 4th in another aquarium by itself as a spare - 6 fishes is too many.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I would personally not put 4 males in that tank (2 groups of 4:2). I don't think there's a clear answer to how many, because it's so dependent on context and individual temperament of the fish. The keepers I know who have kept ortegai had to be fairly vigilant to deal with extreme aggression even with a single pair, and the females can be quite aggressive also. So things could get more complicated the more animals you have. I would probably stock based how how I'm able to move fish around if need be.

Some people like having one pair or trio in a large tank, and just leave the offspring there for growout.

 

[anewbie]

I would personally not put 4 males in that tank (2 groups of 4:2). I don't think there's a clear answer to how many, because it's so dependent on context and individual temperament of the fish. The keepers I know who have kept ortegai had to be fairly vigilant to deal with extreme aggression even with a single pair, and the females can be quite aggressive also. So things could get more complicated the more animals you have. I would probably stock based how how I'm able to move fish around if need be.

Some people like having one pair or trio in a large tank, and just leave the offspring there for growout.

I never suggested 4 males; 2 males and up to 4 females.

 

[Ben Rhau]

You asked if it was big enough for two groups, and then said a group is 4 females and 2 males. Sorry if I misunderstood, just going by what you wrote.

 

[anewbie]

You asked if it was big enough for two groups, and then said a group is 4 females and 2 males. Sorry if I misunderstood, just going by what you wrote.

Look at what you wrote - you said you don't think it is large enough for 4 males; probably a typo and you meant 4 females. So my question is would it be large enough for 2 male and 2 female (i could put the 2 females else-where but I get the feeling this is not a passive species from your other comment and best bet is one male and 2 female AS 2 males and 2 female would also be too much unless i split the tank in half (which i could do with a matten sponge but then the area is 16x24 which is really small for an aggressive species).
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Or did i misunderstand ?

 

[Ben Rhau]

What i call a group is 4 females and 2 males

my thought is an aquarium 48x16 is not large enough for two groups but wanted to check.

Title of your post: Is 48inchx16inch large enough for two groups of ortegai?

Two groups, based on above info, is 2 x (4 females and 2 males) = 8 females and 4 males. You probably are asking about two trios, not two groups.

But that part is less important than how many fish. 2M2F is technically possible. I would not put the two excess females together in that scenario, but you could put them each in different tanks.

48x16 is larger than you need for a trio, so I guess it depends on how you want to use the space.

 

[anewbie]

Title of your post: Is 48inchx16inch large enough for two groups of ortegai?

Two groups, based on above info, is 2 x (4 females and 2 males) = 8 females and 4 males. You probably are asking about two trios, not two groups.

But that part is less important than how many fish. 2M2F is technically possible. I would not put the two excess females together in that scenario, but you could put them each in different tanks.

48x16 is larger than you need for a trio, so I guess it depends on how you want to use the space.

I'm sorry i'm calling a group 1m 2f. Two groups is 4 female and 2 male. My question not being familiar with this species is will 2 male work with 2 to 4 females. And while every fish is different i mean likely to work. From your earlier comments it sounds like this is a very aggressive species so i'm not sure how to take 2m2f can technically work - does that mean it is likely to work or very risky but possible it might work - or it will work in most cases but you never know for sure.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I'm saying that aside from borellii and some other species/species groups that have been in the trade a long time, we don't have that much information on species-specific behavior and variance. The information we have is anecdotal, so it's hard to make general statements for a species based on the behavior of a handful of animals that may have come from the same shipment.

So what do we do? We can take the Apistogramma genus as a whole and follow some general rules on how they can be maintained in captivity, based roughly on size. One rule of thumb that has been offered by some experienced keepers here is one fish per square foot of footprint. But it's more complicated when the dimensions of your tank aren't divided into clean square feet. i.e., the 4 inch-strip from the 16-inch depth isn't divisible into viable territories. So in this case it might be better to look at length. 48 inches for 4 fish (roughly speaking). All of that assumes you've divided that tank into distinct territories from the fish's perspective.

What can we learn from the anecdotal evidence? I think of it more as outlining worst case scenarios. If you're the type of person who isn't worried about aggression and can move fish/restructure accordingly, then I think it's reasonable to try 2 pairs in a tank that size. Whether it's "likely" to work is probably impossible to answer. I think it's higher risk than having a pair each in two 33 gallon tanks. So it depends on what you want for the tank, your tolerance for maintenance, and what your backup plans are.

 

[anewbie]

Yea moving them will be difficult - splitting the tank in 1/2 is easy enough but then i end up with two smaller aquariums which i think people said is not wise. 16x24 seems small for this species no matter how it is scaped.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I agree. I'm not sure what I would do with a 65 gallon tank, since most of the fish I'm interested in don't need large tanks. Perhaps a colony of Dicrossus would be interesting? Or a display tank.

 

[anewbie]

I agree. I'm not sure what I would do with a 65 gallon tank, since most of the fish I'm interested in don't need large tanks. Perhaps a colony of Dicrossus would be interesting? Or a display tank.

In the basement so not much value as a display tank. I know even less about Dicrossus 'cept when i read about them killing each other on these forums. If they are pretty fishes (ortega); I could do them with some nice pencil fishes or green neon tetra. Not sure if the green neon would predate on frys - they are pretty small - i know my passive apistogramode could raise frys with embers.
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I could look for something in the nijjensi family - would love a colony of wc borelli but i haven't seen those in a long time. The problem is most cichild will be limited to 2 pairs to be safe. I doubt i could keep 2 pairs of rams in a tank that size - the ones i've had before could be pretty nasty. Shell fishes maybe but i always prefer soft water fishes - not sure i want to drift to something different.
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Hum. I've read the winkelfleck are passive but i have a pair of those - while adorable i'm not sure i want another tank with them. I don't know. I'll try to get a picture of the ortegai and if they have a lot of colour i'll try a trio i guess with some green neon or pencil fishes. If kind of ugly i'll see if i can find something nice in the nijjensi complex.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I know even less about Dicrossus 'cept when i read about them killing each other on these forums.

The reason they kill each other is that people put 5 or 6 in a 30 gallon tank, waiting to see them sex out, since they're not sexable as juveniles. If you wait even a little too long, they eventually get too big for that tank. Might be easier in a 65, especially for the larger species like D. maculatus. Of course, you still have to want them.

I doubt i could keep 2 pairs of rams in a tank that size - the ones i've had before could be pretty nasty.

Mike has written in previous posts about possibility of putting larger groups of rams in a 40 breeder or larger, in order to replicate more natural breeding conditions. I'm not certain anyone's been successful at that, however. I'd be curious to try that with wild M. ramirezi., and would not terribly bothered if they don't produce much.

I could do them with some nice pencil fishes or green neon tetra.

You could do a very large shoal of pencil fish in a tank that size. Even though they aren't that predatory, I wonder if a large number of fish would pose a threat to fry just based on opportunistic predation.

 

[Ben Rhau]

On that note, I've seen Dicrossus foirni listed recently. Those are usually very hard to find, so that could be an intriguing possibility if you like that fish.

 

[anewbie]

The reason they kill each other is that people put 5 or 6 in a 30 gallon tank, waiting to see them sex out, since they're not sexable as juveniles. If you wait even a little too long, they eventually get too big for that tank. Might be easier in a 65, especially for the larger species like D. maculatus. Of course, you still have to want them.


Mike has written in previous posts about possibility of putting larger groups of rams in a 40 breeder or larger, in order to replicate more natural breeding conditions. I'm not certain anyone's been successful at that, however. I'd be curious to try that with wild M. ramirezi., and would not terribly bothered if they don't produce much.


You could do a very large shoal of pencil fish in a tank that size. Even though they aren't that predatory, I wonder if a large number of fish would pose a threat to fry just based on opportunistic predation.

i have two groups of 6 wc rams - one group is in my discus tank (180 gallon) and the other in my geo tank (550 gallon); so far they seem to be doing well - of course in aquariums that size they can totally hide from each other once they become adults. Right now they are more or less shoaling together because of the larger fishes. I am a huge fan of wc rams.

 

[anewbie]

On that note, I've seen Dicrossus foirni listed recently. Those are usually very hard to find, so that could be an intriguing possibility if you like that fish.

I know absolutely nothing about them other than they kill each other I mean nothing. I've been so focus on a narrower list of fishes I haven't paid any attention to that genus. Besides if i could only keep 1 pair i'm not sure why i would consider them over ortegai or inka - not saying i should open my eyes but at least i know what to expect from nijjensi like fishes.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Of course, it's completely up to you. You don't need to keep only 1 pair unless it's a 20 gallon tank. A 65 opens up options to keep a colony in that genus without having to return the unpaired fish. Whereas with ortegai, you're limited to 2 - 4 fish.

I think they're interesting because they don't breed as easily as most apistos. So I wouldn't have to worry about placing the offspring or burning out the females. They have similarly interesting behavior, and breeding would be an accomplishment. And I think D. filamentosa look great. But that's just me.

 

[MacZ]

A group of D. filamentosus (1,3) is possible. D. foirni are a bit bigger than D. filamentosus or D. maculatus. Halfway to Crenicara I would say.

 

[apistobob]

A tank this size can easily be aquascaped to create multiple (3--6) fully enclosed open areas that can't be seen from another area. This would allow two males to each find a territory. The females will choose a male or not and might have more interactions than the males. As long as you canprovide them territories that are totally walled off from each other they normally won't seek out conflict.

This comes with my regular warning that each fish has its own personality and they will frequently confound us!