Is a 4ft x 4ft aquarium large enough to support colony of both pucallpaensis and borelli ?

[anewbie]

I have a 2nd 4ftx4ft aquarium that hasn't been allocated and originally I was thinking of moving my pucallpaensis to a 15 given that they 'mostly' get along in a 10 (I have 3 females and 2 males in there) and are now breeding. The tank would be scaped somewhat similar as this:


But of course as being 4 times deeper and 2 1/2 times deeper there would be more layers of driftwood - probably mostly horizontal slices but maybe some vertical depending on what i find and how long.

What i don't know is if they will be satisified with their territory or if I would end up creating a lot of excess viciousness. I realize the borelli are a bit larger (having both); so it is somewhat important that the borelli not be excessively vicious.

Originally i was going to move my guppies into this aquarium but my thought now is i will put them in an old 40b that will be in the basement as I don't really find them that interesting (I've had them for 5 years); and i'll let them live out their days until i need to repurpose that aquarium.

The above aquarium is 18 inches high but i can populate the top with a lot of kubotai rasbora and similar.

I actually kind of prefer the pucallpaensis to the borelli but i think the aquarium is a bit too large for just them.



Thoughts ?

 

[Mike Wise]

Thoughts ? Well, you confused me completely about what you want to do. Your string of consciousness is all over the place. You want to move 5 Ap. pucallpaensis from a 10 gallon to a 15 gallon? Not a lot of difference there. Then you mention something like it's "4 times deeper and 2 1/2 times deeper". Now I'm really lost. What tank(s) are we discussing here and which fish go with which??

 

[anewbie]

Thoughts ? Well, you confused me completely about what you want to do. Your string of consciousness is all over the place. You want to move 5 Ap. pucallpaensis from a 10 gallon to a 15 gallon? Not a lot of difference there. Then you mention something like it's "4 times deeper and 2 1/2 times deeper". Now I'm really lost. What tank(s) are we discussing here and which fish go with which??

I'm trying to ask if i allocate the 4ft x 4ft tank to the ap. pucallpaensis is the tank large enough to support them AND a. borelli if well laid out. I know that both species can exist as colony in small aquariums what i don't know is how much region they will want in a larger aquarium and if they can both establish their own territories without too much violence in a larger aquarium.

I.e, I have the aquarium and I feel it is too larger to dedicate to the pucallpaensis but if they can co-exist with the borelli i'm willing to allocate it to both of them.

Does that make sense ?
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If it unwise to put them both in that aquarium then i will use it for something else and figure out a solution for my current group of A. pucallpaensis as i feel the 10 is too small - even if they are managing at this time.

 

[Mike Wise]

I wouldn't keep the 2 species together. They are both derived from resticulosa-complex species in the past. Although I doubt that they would hybridize, but interspecies territorial aggression could occur. I also know that I'd have a difficult time separating young from each other. I suggest that you decide what you want most in the large tank and work around it with something less similar - like a smaller species of Laetacara.

I agree that the 10 is too small for 5 Ap. pucallpaensis, but so is a 15. A 30 Long (36x12x16"/90x30x40cm) would be much better.

 

[anewbie]

I wouldn't keep the 2 species together. They are both derived from resticulosa-complex species in the past. Although I doubt that they would hybridize, but interspecies territorial aggression could occur. I also know that I'd have a difficult time separating young from each other. I suggest that you decide what you want most in the large tank and work around it with something less similar - like a smaller species of Laetacara.

I agree that the 10 is too small for 5 Ap. pucallpaensis, but so is a 15. A 30 Long (36x12x16"/90x30x40cm) would be much better.

Which Laetacara species do you consider small. I've had araguaiae which I considered large. Would keyholes or rams (gbr) be another option ? I think 82 is ok for pucallpaensis but not sure if it is a bit warm. If rams would work i would favor them though I'm not sure what i would put in as tank mates as most of my favored smaller dithers prefer it a bit cooler.
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[Mike Wise]

L. araguaiae, curviceps, dorsigera and flaminellus are the smaller species in the genus. Compared to L. thayeri, flavilabris, and fulvipinnis, they are less massive and shorter. Dwarf acaras are a good choice with apistos in very large aquaria because they inhabit different biotopes. Keyholes, although very peaceful, are larger than small Laetacara.

Ap. pucallpaensis is an inhabitant of jungle covered streams where for most of the year the water is much cooler than that of Rams which tend to inhabit pools and oases in open areas. At 82°F/28°C your apistos will age very rapidly.

 

[anewbie]

L. araguaiae, curviceps, dorsigera and flaminellus are the smaller species in the genus. Compared to L. thayeri, flavilabris, and fulvipinnis, they are less massive and shorter. Dwarf acaras are a good choice with apistos in very large aquaria because they inhabit different biotopes. Keyholes, although very peaceful, are larger than small Laetacara.

Ap. pucallpaensis is an inhabitant of jungle covered streams where for most of the year the water is much cooler than that of Rams which tend to inhabit pools and oases in open areas. At 82°F/28°C your apistos will age very rapidly.

Ok. I'll try for a nice dorsigera or araguaiae depending on what is available. Kind of like 'artificial' gold rams but can never find a decent fit for their temp range to justify an entire aquairum. The article i read had suggested 79 for pucallpaensis but it sounds like i could safely keep them a bit cooler so maybe i'll lower the temp to 77 this winter.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Mazan]

My L. araguaiae are quite a bit bigger than the size given in most sources and the males are pretty chunky. They are also fairly aggressive.

 

[anewbie]

My L. araguaiae are quite a bit bigger than the size given in most sources and the males are pretty chunky. They are also fairly aggressive.
View attachment 12117

Yea - i'm not sure mine were aggressive with species other than their own but they were quite large and chunky. They never harm the little pygmy cory in the same tank nor the nanacara but among themselves they were constantly fighting (i had 4 with one turning out to be a runt). I was not overly enchanted with them.
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I wonder if krobia xinguensis would be an option ? The text on them indicate they get around 5 inches; but that is the same size of keyholes. I guess my araguaiae were only around 4 inches but chunky.

 

[Mazan]

When they were breeding (which for quite some time was non-stop) they were aggressive to anyone else that came near them. Now they seem to have given up breeding, and only chase each other (I have two pairs), and yes, the males are about 4". I did actually have them with a couple of Apistogramma cacatuoides for quite a long time, and initially they were not at all aggressive to each other, but as the Laetacaras matured they became much more dominant, and much more out in the open, while the Apistogrammas kept out of their way in the plants, keeping low and in areas the Laetacaras didn't use much. The tank I have them in is quite large - 160 x 60 x 60cm (63 x 24 x 24" approx.) and well planted, though not as big as yours. I have no experience Krobia xinguensis (or any Krobia species), but they are supposed to be peaceful so could be an interesting option, however the two species would not normally occur together and inhabit different habitat types. I would rather be inclined to look into other species (not necessarily cichlids) that would naturally occur together with A. pucallpaensis.

 

[anewbie]

When they were breeding (which for quite some time was non-stop) they were aggressive to anyone else that came near them. Now they seem to have given up breeding, and only chase each other (I have two pairs), and yes, the males are about 4". I did actually have them with a couple of Apistogramma cacatuoides for quite a long time, and initially they were not at all aggressive to each other, but as the Laetacaras matured they became much more dominant, and much more out in the open, while the Apistogrammas kept out of their way in the plants, keeping low and in areas the Laetacaras didn't use much. The tank I have them in is quite large - 160 x 60 x 60cm (63 x 24 x 24" approx.) and well planted, though not as big as yours. I have no experience Krobia xinguensis (or any Krobia species), but they are supposed to be peaceful so could be an interesting option, however the two species would not normally occur together and inhabit different habitat types. I would rather be inclined to look into other species (not necessarily cichlids) that would naturally occur together with A. pucallpaensis.

Any suggestions either on specific fishes or resources for figuring out what occurs naturally with them ?

 

[Mazan]

Any suggestions either on specific fishes or resources for figuring out what occurs naturally with them ?

I have quite a bit of relevant literature so will look into this later this evening.

 

[anewbie]

I have quite a bit of relevant literature so will look into this later this evening.

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

 

[Mazan]

I think this article might be useful. If you scroll down there is a list of species collected at 11 different sampling locations. A. pucallpaensis was collected in only one of the sites, CII, (an investigation centre), so you can check which other species were found at this location. It was a river 2-5m wide with a clay substrate and clear water. Of course this won't be an exhaustive list as A. pucallpaensis is found in other regions as well, which might have other species, but a start anyway. In Peru A. pucallpaensis is collected commercially mainly from the Rio Itaya, but I don't seem to have a complete list of fish from that river.

 

[Mazan]

What about Biotodoma? Would they work? Or too big?.

 

[anewbie]

What about Biotodoma? Would they work?

I saw biotodoma cupido on the list - they are around 5 inches and i always associated them with earth eaters (near the bottom); so i'm not sure why they would be advantagous over keyholes at least with regards to size. I've not had them before so i don't actually know for sure if there is any seperation in area between them and pucallpaensis. I suspect if i leave the middle open and the sides heavily planted the pucallpanesis will tend towards the plants but not sure if the cupido will stay in the open.

I also saw apistogramma bitaeniata on the list -but i always thought of bitaeniata as a blackwater fish and pucallpaensis as a white water fish so bit confused there. There are a bunch of Bujurquina and they appear to be a smaller fishes but not readily available and i can't find anything on aggression level.

 

[Mazan]

Here is a video of a tank with Biotodoma and Apistogramma:

I have a feeling the Biotodoma would stay in the open, but I haven't ever kept them so not sure. Probably not much advantage over keyhole cichlids, except that they and the Apistogrammoides naturally occur together. The Bujurquinas are interesting, but as you say probably difficult to get hold of. And yes, theoretically bitaeniata is from blackwater and pucallpaensis from whitewater so that is a bit strange!

 

[anewbie]

Here is a video of a tank with Biotodoma and Apistogramma:

I have a feeling the Biotodoma would stay in the open, but I haven't ever kept them so not sure. Probably not much advantage over keyhole cichlids, except that they and the Apistogrammoides naturally occur together. The Bujurquinas are interesting, but as you say probably difficult to get hold of. And yes, theoretically bitaeniata is from blackwater and pucallpaensis from whitewater so that is a bit strange!

I might try them if no one else has suggestions; though i notice they are keeping angels with their apisto (?species?); i would be a bit concern having angels in the tank given their size difference; though the aquarium itself is large enough for angels.

 

[Mazan]

I have had angelfish with Apistogrammas, they ignore each other. I think this thread is by the person who posted the video above: https://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/1-60m-south-american-biotope.12006/page-6

 

[anewbie]

Interesting so he went with leopoldi; So maybe my 5 pucallpaensis + their off springs; 4 to 6 leopoldi; 7 cupid; 14 ember tetra and some sort of pencil fish ?