Bloated Apisto agassizii fire red

[Shannonh7426]

Hello! First time Apisto mom here. No idea why he's so bloated all of a sudden. He's still eating. In fact he's acting like he's starving. He eats a few vibra bites each morning. It's a community tank so there's also some tetra pellets and sinking wafers for the Corys. I only ever see him eat the vibra bites. Tank parameters: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, ph 7, temp 79f. Fairly new tank, about 4 months old. Have had him for 2 months now. He's still acting normal, but he's been bloated like this for a few days now. I fasted the tank for a day and no difference. Not that I expected a miracle overnight, but I'm wondering if I should be treating him for parasites or something else. Everyone else in the tank is fine. There are 5 albino corys, a female apisto agassizii, 3 platys and 9 neon tetras. 36 gallon planted tank.

 

[MacZ]

That's a case of acute kidney failure aka dropsy. The cause is usually an unspecific bacterial infection by an opportunistic bacterium. These bacteria strike when a fish is stressed and the immune system weakened. There are treatments people do in such cases, but they have severe side effects that can kill the fish even quicker they are also privey and can be stressful for you, too. Instead of subjecting it to any such torments, I'd put it down.

As to prevent such things in the future please fill out the disease template, so mistakes and weaknesses in husbandry can be prevented from now on.

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

 

[Mike Wise]

I'm not sure I see dropsy. This syndrome typically shows the scales sticking out like a pine cone and I don't see it on this photo. It's just as likely that the fish has an intestinal blockage. A diet high in dry foods can cause this.

 

[MacZ]

Doesn't have to be pineconing. Seems to be early stage.

The problem with dry foods is always a thing though.

 

[anewbie]

Doesn't have to be pineconing. Seems to be early stage.

The problem with dry foods is always a thing though.

I had a nijjensi live 5+ years off of fluval bug bite (dry food). And her death was due to a foobar when i moved not natural.

 

[Shannonh7426]

That's a case of acute kidney failure aka dropsy. The cause is usually an unspecific bacterial infection by an opportunistic bacterium. These bacteria strike when a fish is stressed and the immune system weakened. There are treatments people do in such cases, but they have severe side effects that can kill the fish even quicker they are also privey and can be stressful for you, too. Instead of subjecting it to any such torments, I'd put it down.

As to prevent such things in the future please fill out the disease template, so mistakes and weaknesses in husbandry can be prevented from now on.

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

Oh man... I was really hoping it wasn't dropsy. He's my favorite little dude When you say dry foods, is there something else I should be feeding them? Like frozen brine shrimp or? I've given them frozen bloodworms a few times when I first got them as a treat, but then I read that they can cause apistos digestive issues so I stopped.

 

[Shannonh7426]

I had a nijjensi live 5+ years off of fluval bug bite (dry food). And her death was due to a foobar when i moved not natural.

What is a foobar? I'll make sure I don't try that.

 

[Shannonh7426]

I'm not sure I see dropsy. This syndrome typically shows the scales sticking out like a pine cone and I don't see it on this photo. It's just as likely that the fish has an intestinal blockage. A diet high in dry foods can cause this.

He's not pineconing as of yet. I'm hoping it is a digestive problem and maybe a few days fasting may help? Do you think that would be worth a try? Also any tips for balancing out the diet would be greatly appreciated. I'm willing to give them whatever they need. I thought about trying to keep some kind of shrimp that they could eat the babies but I haven't done enough research yet. There's a lot to learn in this hobby!

 

[MacZ]

Even if it's a blockage it's at a stage where there is no way of treating it.

Healthy food is diverse:
Live foods like Artemia, Daphnia, Cyclops, white mosquito larvae, these same items as frozen foods and a part dry foods.

And you've done right leaving the red mosquito larvae (bloodworms), these can (not a must, but the higher likelihood is there) right up kill dwarf cichlids. As not everybody has has contact with that phenomenon it seems to be a quality thing. Many stores ignore cool chains as it's not for human consumption. But we had cases in which we could only determine that stuff as involved but not how exactly. Some theories are off the table, others have cropped up.

You can try fasting and feeding small amounts frozen daphnia with garlic juice, that would be a lot of dietary fiber. But beyond that there is nothing really. Please don't try boiled peas that has been checked scientifically to be a placebo.

 

[NoMad]

View attachment 15431
Hello! First time Apisto mom here. No idea why he's so bloated all of a sudden. He's still eating. In fact he's acting like he's starving. He eats a few vibra bites each morning. It's a community tank so there's also some tetra pellets and sinking wafers for the Corys. I only ever see him eat the vibra bites. Tank parameters: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, ph 7, temp 79f. Fairly new tank, about 4 months old. Have had him for 2 months now. He's still acting normal, but he's been bloated like this for a few days now. I fasted the tank for a day and no difference. Not that I expected a miracle overnight, but I'm wondering if I should be treating him for parasites or something else. Everyone else in the tank is fine. There are 5 albino corys, a female apisto agassizii, 3 platys and 9 neon tetras. 36 gallon planted tank.

Hey,
I'm no expert but I would try feeding it flakes soaked in epsom salt. Never really had problems with dropsy but I have successfully treated intestinal problems with this method (internal parasites and chronic bloating including). Hope this helps.

 

[MacZ]

Hey,
I'm no expert but I would try feeding it flakes soaked in epsom salt. Never really had problems with dropsy but I have successfully treated intestinal problems with this method (internal parasites and chronic bloating including). Hope this helps.

Epsom salt baths are used to extract the water that fills the body cavity and tissue due to kidney failure. It alleviates pressure by using osmostic differences between the body and the outside medium. Feeding it is likely to put strain on liver and other organs, prolonging the whole ordeal. As the kidneys are already at least so damaged the life expectancy of the fish is already diminished heavily.

I doubt your method really did anything. Magnesium salt (epsom) is not indicated to do anything about the problems named. I rather presume the diagnoses were unclear. Or guesses. And that's the biggest problem, even with knowledge about fish diseases and physiology we all can give educated guesses at most. Me including.

But the correct diagnostics would include killing the fish in question and only serve to prevent harm to the rest of the stock.

 

[NoMad]

Epsom salt baths are used to extract the water that fills the body cavity and tissue due to kidney failure. It alleviates pressure by using osmostic differences between the body and the outside medium. Feeding it is likely to put strain on liver and other organs, prolonging the whole ordeal. As the kidneys are already at least so damaged the life expectancy of the fish is already diminished heavily.

I doubt your method really did anything. Magnesium salt (epsom) is not indicated to do anything about the problems named. I rather presume the diagnoses were unclear. Or guesses. And that's the biggest problem, even with knowledge about fish diseases and physiology we all can give educated guesses at most. Me including.

But the correct diagnostics would include killing the fish in question and only serve to prevent harm to the rest of the stock.

You're right it's just guessing but simply letting the fish die is not a way to go. I've never tried this method on apistogramma so your point is correct but I tried on numerous other fishes and their lifespan even increased so it doesn't have negative effects on liver or other organs.
Epsom salt has a lot of medicinal properties. Most importantly it will reduce swelling, it draws out excess water and helps to expell waste. It has also mild antibiotic and anti-parasitic characteristic and is widely used for constipation, parasitic or bacterial infections, or even dropsy treatment in aquarium fish.

From my experience it'll either help or do nothing.

 

[MacZ]

I see we have just one different point of view: It's not like I would let the fish die, I'd actively end its suffering. It's a matter of approaches. Many treatments backfire and to me it's out of the question objecting an animal to treatments I do not know to work.

It has also mild antibiotic and anti-parasitic characteristic

That's new to me. I know it helps with digestion in mammals and birds, while amphibians and reptiles are more rarely responding positvely. I also knew people poisoned catfish with ist. So the assumption of it working in fish beyond extracting water from tissue did not come to me.

or even dropsy treatment in aquarium fish.

That's the only regular use of it I know.

 

[Mike Wise]

What is a foobar? I'll make sure I don't try that.

An old military term usually spelled FUBAR: F@#k&d up beyond all recognition; have had personal experience with it.

 

[anewbie]

Yes in simple terms when i moved i fucked up and cut her life short and feel guilty about it even now a year 1/2 later.

 

[Shannonh7426]

An old military term usually spelled FUBAR: F@#k&d up beyond all recognition; have had personal experience with it.

Ooooh haha. I thought it was a type of food I haven't heard of yet lol. Oh man. This is my first encounter with the bloated thing... what a bummer.

 

[Shannonh7426]

Even if it's a blockage it's at a stage where there is no way of treating it.

Healthy food is diverse:
Live foods like Artemia, Daphnia, Cyclops, white mosquito larvae, these same items as frozen foods and a part dry foods.

And you've done right leaving the red mosquito larvae (bloodworms), these can (not a must, but the higher likelihood is there) right up kill dwarf cichlids. As not everybody has has contact with that phenomenon it seems to be a quality thing. Many stores ignore cool chains as it's not for human consumption. But we had cases in which we could only determine that stuff as involved but not how exactly. Some theories are off the table, others have cropped up.

You can try fasting and feeding small amounts frozen daphnia with garlic juice, that would be a lot of dietary fiber. But beyond that there is nothing really. Please don't try boiled peas that has been checked scientifically to be a placebo.

Ooh ok. Thank you! I'll look into getting those for the future. I'm just fasting and watching him for now. He's still acting fairly normal, a little slower than normal but still moving around and poking his little head out from the plants every now and then to see if I'm looking at his girlfriend lol. He's a character. If he starts to show any signs of distress, which I expect to be any time now (although I'm hopeful, I think you might be right about it being too far along, he's still really bloated), I will take your advice and put him down. What is the best way to do that? I've read mixed theories on clove oil. Some say it's the best way but others say it's actually suffocating and painful. Any thoughts?

 

[MacZ]

Clove oil is a painkiller, in humans and fish alike. So you can rule out it being painful. It paralyzes the fishes muscles and usually a fish treated with it correctly is very much knocked out pain free and without consciousness. A high dosage will then send it to the other side, though any method is allright when the fish is out of it.
In fact here in the EU it is the only legal method to put a fish down and animal welfare laws here are strict.

 

[Shannonh7426]

Update on my little buddy. I tried fasting for a few days and also treated the tank with API general cure. While he seemed to get better for a day or two after the general cure, unfortunately the bloating did not go down at all and last week he had mostly stopped swimming and was just laying at the bottom under the plants or in the little cave. When he did swim he was showing signs that he couldn't control his movements so I decided to put him down.

Now I'm wondering if I should look for another male so the female isn't left alone? Any thoughts?

 

[MacZ]

and also treated the tank with API general cure.

I think everybod could have told you that there is no way of such a broadband mix really helping with dropsy.

Now I'm wondering if I should look for another male so the female isn't left alone? Any thoughts?

Unless you want to breed, leave her alone. These fish are not dependend on living in groups. Quite the opposite. A female of a domestic breed like this is likely to get older than usual if kept alone.