Dicrossus filamentosus illness help

[Jasonmc89]

First do some pure RO waterchanges to get the last bit of hardness out (may take a few extra waterchanges extra as wood and substrate are soaked with the water as it is right now, you will have to passively flush them.).

Little disclaimer: Peat can not sustainably sourced and thus helps destroying priceless habitats.
Botanicals (autmn leaves, alder cones, organic rooibos) are a sustainable alternative, but they take much more time but little effort. You have time, so consider it.

It is available in garden centers in big bags for cheap, just look for peat without vertilizers.
It is also available in small overprized packages in the aquarium trade (e.g. by Eheim).
For some reason it is also sold as peat moss, which is an misnomer and can get you actual, still green or dried sphagnum moss. That doesn't do the trick.
There are mesh bags for filter media available, nylon panties are the cheap DIY alternative. Fill one or two of these bags with peat so it is about the size of your fist. Water it overnight so it can soak, then either out it in the second to last stage of a canister filter or alternatively just add them to the tank, somewhere where they get some waterflow.

Check the parameters for some days.

One more heads up to that:
pH-meters and driptests (let alone strips) do not work properly in softwater, so if you want to know what pH you are getting out of it, take a sample add some table salt (NaCl) to raise conductivity without changing pH and measure with a meter.

About the dangers:
Be aware, it is hard to get the pH below 6 as it takes lots of H+ ions. A pH-crash is almost impossible to trigger with peat or botanicals. It is more likely to cause an oxygen depletion, but for this you'd have to add so much peat or botanicals at once, it is unlikely to happen. Luckily a simple airstone can solve the problem within hours and an emergency waterchange if necessary, too. But the likelhood is very very low.

Just to have told you:
Alternatively add the following mixtur once a week over 3 months.

- 2 Liters of RO
- 20 alder cones
- 4-5 whole cattapa leaves or 10-15 beech or oak leaves
- 2 teabags of organic rooibos without aroma additives

Bring the water to a boil, add the botanicals let it cool down and steep for at least 4 hours or overnight, add the brew to the tank, as well as the leaves. The cones can be dried and used up to 3 times. The leaves should stay in the tank until completely desintegrated.

Just for reference this is how my tank looks

 

[MacZ]

Could I get good results by using alder cones and leaves such at almond and guava? Or is leaf the best way to go.

The problem with alder cones: They contain seeds. And as we all know they contain sugars and fats which rot faster and under higher oxygen usage than brown leaves. Before a tree sheds a leaf it removes almost all nutrients from it. Hence leaves can be added and left to rot (and thus produce more humic substances) in a limited system like an aquarium in higher numbers.
That's why I prefer using alder cones for extract and not add them directly to the tank.
And btw: Catappa = Sea-almond
In my opinion the type of leaf is irrelevant. Brown leaves will have the desired effect It will just take longer. For my tank (Thread is in my signature) it took about 4-5 months of bi-weekly addition of leaves and extract to get me to a stable pH below 6. The first few months it would not drop below 6, whatever I tried.

I’m very aware of the damage to nature peat harvesting causes so would preferably use alternative methods.

Good, sometimes people are absolutely ignorant of that.

Awesome tank you have there. Mine looked similar (just had to take it apart last weekend). And great fish, Colombian origin, I recon?

 

[Jasonmc89]

Thank you!

I wouldn’t really want to add the alder cones directly to the tank as they’re not native to the region I’m basing it on. So I would only brew them with the RO before adding them. At the moment I’ve got guava leaves and coconut husk in there.

How would adding fertilisers for the plants affect a black water set up? At the moment I’m using “Oase ScaperLine daily fertiliser” at half recommended strength, daily.

I’m having problems with my floating plants at the moment. They have shrunk back a lot since that photo and are very small now. But the rest of my plants have grown a lot so maybe they are deprived of nutrients.

I’m not sure where they are from! The shop I got them from didn’t have much information on them.

My other local shop has both filamentosus and maculatus from Brazil at the moment though. Both wild caught. Filamentosus are around 20-25mm and priced at 3 for £40 and the maculatus are around 15-20mm and prices at £4.50 each! Really cheap for maculatus!

 

[MacZ]

I wouldn’t really want to add the alder cones directly to the tank as they’re not native to the region I’m basing it on. So I would only brew them with the RO before adding them. At the moment I’ve got guava leaves and coconut husk in there.

Legitimate approach.

How would adding fertilisers for the plants affect a black water set up? At the moment I’m using “Oase ScaperLine daily fertiliser” at half recommended strength, daily.

I went with the Duckweed Index. Choose a floating plant (I prefer Limnobium/Frogbit) and if those show deficiencies add a bit of fertilizer. They react quickly (under 10 hours) so they are useful as an indicator. I used Tropica Specialized (the green stuff). And went in my roughly 100 Liter Tank with 10ml per months. At one point I stopped using ferilizers at all, because the mulm layer, the fish waste and the fish food provided more than enough nutrients. I haven't added any fertilizers for at least a year before I dismantled the tank. It's a minimal-dosing method. You close in on the amounts you need from the lower end.

I’m having problems with my floating plants at the moment. They have shrunk back a lot since that photo and are very small now. But the rest of my plants have grown a lot so maybe they are deprived of nutrients.

Possible. I'm not really a plant expert. Softwater habitats have few true aquatic plants and as such my tank had few Aquatic plants as well. Most was Epipremnum/Pothos which I grew emersed out of the tank.

I’m not sure where they are from! The shop I got them from didn’t have much information on them.

The more purple leaning colouration and the pattern between the caudal lobes says colombian.

My other local shop has both filamentosus and maculatus from Brazil at the moment though. Both wild caught. Filamentosus are around 20-25mm and priced at 3 for £40 and the maculatus are around 15-20mm and prices at £4.50 each! Really cheap for maculatus!

Means the D. maculatus are probably tankbred, because it's not the season yet (Late February - early May). Last time I got D. filamentosus (2022) I paid 10€ each at 2.5cm (WC from Brazil), 2021 I paid 3.99 each at the same size (WC from Colombia, but the species was in season). Big problem: At those sizes they can't be sexed. I'd start with a group of 6 and make a deal with the store to take them back grown out if you have too many males.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Could I get good results by using alder cones and leaves such at almond and guava?

I do this, but I don't buy structural leaf litter, I pick my own <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/thre...water-with-tap-water.24384/page-2#post-116219">.

Have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...llecting-your-own-bountiful-botanicals.70947/"> and <"https://www.aqualog.de/en/blog-en/medicinal-trees-the-common-alder/">.

Just for reference this is how my tank looks

Lovely, and the Dicrossus look really healthy in the photo. Pistia stratiotes (Nile Cabbage) has great roots.

cheers Darrel

 

[Jasonmc89]

Hi all,

I do this, but I don't buy structural leaf litter, I pick my own <"https://apistogramma.com/forum/thre...water-with-tap-water.24384/page-2#post-116219">.

Have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...llecting-your-own-bountiful-botanicals.70947/"> and <"https://www.aqualog.de/en/blog-en/medicinal-trees-the-common-alder/">.

Lovely, and the Dicrossus look really healthy in the photo. Pistia stratiotes (Nile Cabbage) has great roots.

cheers Darrel

Thanks, that’s why I was so shocked that they went down hill so quick. I thought they did look healthy too! I’ve lost 3 in the past 2 week and I’m down to one now.

Cheers

 

[MacZ]

When the males have to share the tank, stress can cause quick decline. My 5 males I had a few years ago (raised them from small juveniles) killed each other actively. So the three remaining ones were separated and two rehomed.

 

[anewbie]

When the males have to share the tank, stress can cause quick decline. My 5 males I had a few years ago (raised them from small juveniles) killed each other actively. So the three remaining ones were separated and two rehomed.

Aquarium size? Also is there known data how large their territory is - i.e, if they were in a 10ftx4ft aquarium would death/stress still occur? How about 6ftx2ft or 4ftx4ft or ..... If i remember correctly your aquarium was relatively small. Having said that there are species that want 10 sqft so i'm not claiming the home aquarium can satisfy multiple males but not knowing their territory size i'm not sure what would be adequate.

 

[MacZ]

Indeed, but I have to say, since I was able to watch my fish in a 1.3 meter store showtank afterwards, where 2 males were ended up, the dominant one pushed the other one uop to the corner after a week and 2 weeks later the store owner told me the subdominant one died from injuries by the dominant fish. And I have to stress, that tank was very well structured.

 

[Mazan]

How do I go about setting up peat filtration?

You might want to look at my thread here, I started with tap water of very similar parameters to yours. copied Mike's method and managed to get the pH of prepared peat water down to 5.5. Later it rained and found I got the same pH more or less with rain water, so I have been using rain water more often now.

Can I make blackwater using my tap water?

It's amazing the different pollutants that are in the air and deposited on your roof. I would recommend that the next time it rains wait about 15 minutes before collecting water. That should be enough time to wash off the roof.

apistogramma.com

Be aware, it is hard to get the pH below 6 as it takes lots of H+ ions. A pH-crash is almost impossible to trigger with peat or botanicals.

So true, it took a long time and several water changes with peat water to get my tank water below 6.5. It finally seems to have stabilized at about 5.5-6 (only using liquid test, but adding salt I seem to get the same results), but I can't seem to get it any lower despite adding more leaves.

I’m having problems with my floating plants at the moment. They have shrunk back a lot since that photo and are very small now. But the rest of my plants have grown a lot so maybe they are deprived of nutrients.

That is strange, I have both water lettuce and frogbit and have to clear some out every few days to be able to feed the fish! I think in this tank the water lettuce is winning...I do have other plants in the tank but do not use fertilizer.

 

[anewbie]

Indeed, but I have to say, since I was able to watch my fish in a 1.3 meter store showtank afterwards, where 2 males were ended up, the dominant one pushed the other one uop to the corner after a week and 2 weeks later the store owner told me the subdominant one died from injuries by the dominant fish. And I have to stress, that tank was very well structured.

So you would need at least 6 feet to have a chance for 2 males; not a small area. I could try two males in my discus tank which is 6 feet long and 2 feet wide but i rather put a single male in a 20 long where i could care for it properly.

 

[MacZ]

Just to make something clear: Females can live together without problems. No aggression unless a certain stocking density is reached. I assume a female per 20x20cm footprint is possible.

 

[anewbie]

Just to make something clear: Females can live together without problems. No aggression unless a certain stocking density is reached. I assume a female per 20x20cm footprint is possible.

Do you know if all commonly sold species of dicrossus behave fairly similarily ?

 

[MacZ]

Can only speak of F. filamentosus and D. maculatus from personal experience, D. gladicauda is said to be similar. The others I haven't had the chance of even seeing in person.

 

[MacZ]

but adding salt I seem to get the same results),

Adding salt only works for pH-meters not liquid tests. You add it to raise conductivity so the meter can work at all.

 

[Jasonmc89]

Adding salt only works for pH-meters not liquid tests. You add it to raise conductivity so the meter can work at all.

Hi, I’d just like to give you an update, and get your opinion on my water chemistry currently.

I have been using 100% RO, brewed with alder cones and other botanicals since we last spoke.

Using the drip tests, my kh measures 0 and gh measures 1 and my pH is down to 6.6-6.8.

Should I worry about minerals dropping too low?

Cheers

 

[MacZ]

Should I worry about minerals dropping too low?

No. These fish are adapted to live in what equals distilled water, basically.

 

[Jasonmc89]

No. These fish are adapted to live in what equals distilled water, basically.

Cool, that’s what I thought, just wanted to confirm it!

I’ve noticed my cories seem a lot more active recently. I’m guessing it’s the increased tannins.

Cheers

 

[MacZ]

I’ve noticed my cories seem a lot more active recently. I’m guessing it’s the increased tannins.

Or the RO was cooler at first. Corydoraoid catfish react mostly to temperature. Humic substances usually don't have that effect.

 

[Jasonmc89]

Or the RO was cooler at first. Corydoraoid catfish react mostly to temperature. Humic substances usually don't have that effect.

My theory was because of the darker water making them feel more secure. My cories have always been really shy even though I’ve had them almost a year. I suppose I could do with a bigger group also - I have 6 Adolpho cories. They are just so hard to find!