Dicrossus filamentosus illness help

[Jasonmc89]

Hi all,

I posted a thread the other day about how I lost my big male checkerboard. I’ve since lost 2 more and am only left with one now.

-pH 6.6

-Nitrate: 0 (creeps up to ~3ppm sometimes when I remove some floating plants)

-Nitrite: 0

-Ammonia: 0

-GH 1.5

-KH 1

-Temp 27C

-Lots of plants and wood and air diffusion
-Food: frozen mysis, daph, discus mix and dry hikari viva bites and flu all bug bites. They would also nibble as the sinking cory pellets too. Always avoided bloodworms

-Tank has been running for around 1 year


I’ve had them around 8 months and when I got them you could just about tell which ones were male and female. So I’m guessing there were between 4 and 6 months when I got them from what I’ve read about development. So that would make them around a year old.

After I lost the first male I started a course of flubenzadole (NT labs fluke and wormer) based on the advice from my local shop. I also upped the water changes and reduced the feeding. I have done 2 treatments, one week apart. Followed instructions exactly.

After 2 weeks my other male (who used to be female) seemed fine but then rapidly went down hill.

Around 3 days ago I noticed some cloudiness to his eyes. Not a lot, but a little haze. Was still eating. Then last night he seemed really lethargic and would go for food but spit it back out. Then lose interest after a couple of minutes. He looked really weak and his body had a kind of droopy look to it. He was just sitting on the sand, breathing quite heavily.

The last dose of Flubenzadole was 4 days ago and I have to a 25% WC since then.

All other fish seem fine: other Dicrossus (for now!), cardinals, rummynose and tucano tetras and adolphoii cories.

Any advice on what this could be?


Thanks.

 

[Mike Wise]

This species is a true blackwater species. I always had success keeping them and spawns when water pH was below 6.

 

[Jasonmc89]

This species is a true blackwater species. I always had success keeping them and spawns when water pH was below 6.

Could the slightly higher pH be responsible for their decline?

 

[Mike Wise]

Very possible. Higher pH values tend to have higher bacterial loads. Their immune system might not be able to deal with it. I found at pH around 5.5 they were more active and willing to spawn.

 

[MacZ]

I agree with Mike:
Electric Conductivity (EC) and pH are the key factors in keeping softwater fish. I'm saying softwater, as blackwater is just one type of softwater.
Blackwater usually has a conductivity under 15µS/cm, so it's basically distilled water in that regard, combined with a 4.3-5.5 pH. Clearwater goes up to 20µS/cm and a pH around 6. Whitewater is at about 50µS/cm with a pH periodically up to 7.5.

Both values keep bacteria at bay, so don't focus on pH alone or EC alone. Low EC is the prerequisite to low pH. So focus on keeping it down first, then add humic substances (aka "tannins") to lower pH. In RO water peat can lower pH easily to below 6. There is no danger of a pH crash, as the acids in peat are so weak they do not add as much H+ ions (which are measured by pH) as to cause a pH crash.
Please do not try regulating with pH-down products or strong acids unless you have tried the safer methods with peat and botanicals.

Pure RO + peat/botanicals - any other additives = softwater fitting these fish.

 

[Jasonmc89]

I agree with Mike:
Electric Conductivity (EC) and pH are the key factors in keeping softwater fish. I'm saying softwater, as blackwater is just one type of softwater.
Blackwater usually has a conductivity under 15µS/cm, so it's basically distilled water in that regard, combined with a 4.3-5.5 pH. Clearwater goes up to 20µS/cm and a pH around 6. Whitewater is at about 50µS/cm with a pH periodically up to 7.5.

Both values keep bacteria at bay, so don't focus on pH alone or EC alone. Low EC is the prerequisite to low pH. So focus on keeping it down first, then add humic substances (aka "tannins") to lower pH. In RO water peat can lower pH easily to below 6. There is no danger of a pH crash, as the acids in peat are so weak they do not add as much H+ ions (which are measured by pH) as to cause a pH crash.
Please do not try regulating with pH-down products or strong acids unless you have tried the safer methods with peat and botanicals.

Pure RO + peat/botanicals - any other additives = softwater fitting these fish.

Thanks for the brilliant description and info! Really appreciate it.

I don’t know how to measure conductivity. However, I figured my water would have been suitable based on my KH and GH levels. I use 30/1 RO tap water mix for changes and the only thing I add is weak fertiliser for plants. Also I always have a bunch of leaves/seed pods in there for tannins. Water is a light yellow at the moment though because I’ve been using guava leaves lately.

As I understand the maculatus species requires less “black water” conditions. Would you agree? My local show has loads at the moment


Thanks again

 

[Jasonmc89]

Very possible. Higher pH values tend to have higher bacterial loads. Their immune system might not be able to deal with it. I found at pH around 5.5 they were more active and willing to spawn.

That’s interesting and makes sense.

Would adding a UV help the situation?

I’ve got one plumbed in but I haven’t used it for a while as I felt it was having a negative affect on my plants. Seems to be degrading minerals.


Cheers

 

[MacZ]

I don’t know how to measure conductivity.

Meters that do the job are available on the internet for between 15 and 25 Euros.

owever, I figured my water would have been suitable based on my KH and GH levels. I use 30/1 RO tap water mix for changes and the only thing I add is weak fertiliser for plants. Also I always have a bunch of leaves/seed pods in there for tannins. Water is a light yellow at the moment though because I’ve been using guava leaves lately.

1 degree hardness equals 17.8mg/liter which equals roughly 35µS/cm conductivity. So you have at least 70-100 µS/cm. You can toss mixing with tap completely.

As I understand the maculatus species requires less “black water” conditions. Would you agree? My local show has loads at the moment

In practice I'd keep all Dicrossus at the same parameters.

Would adding a UV help the situation?

That's a short term solution. Longterm it has shown to bring problems, as fertilizers and humic substances are broken down too quickly. It's not degrading minerals in fertilizers, but the often organic compounds containing micro nutrients like iron are broken down and make them unavailable for the plants.
UV is only an option if you have tap only and need to keep softwater fishes alive and stable. I see very few applications at home, ecept as a countermeasure to certain parasites like Dermocystidium. In a store they are gold standard though, in my opinion.

 

[Jasonmc89]

Meters that do the job are available on the internet for between 15 and 25 Euros.


1 degree hardness equals 17.8mg/liter which equals roughly 35µS/cm conductivity. So you have at least 70-100 µS/cm. You can toss mixing with tap completely.


In practice I'd keep all Dicrossus at the same parameters.


That's a short term solution. Longterm it has shown to bring problems, as fertilizers and humic substances are broken down too quickly. It's not degrading minerals in fertilizers, but the often organic compounds containing micro nutrients like iron are broken down and make them unavailable for the plants.
UV is only an option if you have tap only and need to keep softwater fishes alive and stable. I see very few applications at home, ecept as a countermeasure to certain parasites like Dermocystidium. In a store they are gold standard though, in my opinion.

Wow thanks. I’ve really learnt a lot from this thread already!

You see, I really like cichlids and the Amazon region so that’s why I set my sights on Dicrossus originally.

Would the rest of my tank inhabitants, including the plants, be okay with “Dicrossus water”? (Cardinals, rummynose, tucano & adolphoii cories)

Would keeping Apistos be any different? Something for me to look at in the future maybe.

Thanks again

 

[anewbie]

Wow thanks. I’ve really learnt a lot from this thread already!

You see, I really like cichlids and the Amazon region so that’s why I set my sights on Dicrossus originally.

Would the rest of my tank inhabitants, including the plants, be okay with “Dicrossus water”? (Cardinals, rummynose, tucano & adolphoii cories)

Would keeping Apistos be any different? Something for me to look at in the future maybe.

Thanks again

With the water yes; but the larger tetra will prey on fry if your intention is for them to breed and the cory will cause a lot of frustration and aggression for most dwarf cichild.

 

[Jasonmc89]

With the water yes; but the larger tetra will prey on fry if your intention is for them to breed and the cory will cause a lot of frustration and aggression for most dwarf cichild.

My Dicrossus used to spawn a lot and the cories never seemed to interfere. The way I have my tank set up I’ve got a large piece of wood with a 2” gap under it. The cories hang out there pretty much the whole time.

I wouldn’t necessarily look to breed, so possibly even a same sex pair or single male. I just love cichlids intelligence!

 

[MacZ]

With the water yes; but the larger tetra will prey on fry if your intention is for them to breed and the cory will cause a lot of frustration and aggression for most dwarf cichild.

Dicrossus are much more relaxed than Apistogramma. The males are not involved at all and Dicrossus are open spawners, they choose leaves of aquatic plants like Echinodorus or Lotus, the sides of wood pieces or bigger leaves among leaf litter. So there isn't as much interaction with the Hoplisoma anyway. Dicrossus can be very agressive among each other, though. Just as much as Apistogramma.

Would the rest of my tank inhabitants, including the plants, be okay with “Dicrossus water”? (Cardinals, rummynose, tucano & adolphoii cories)

Let me stress this: As long as you choose other softwater species from the same region that's only beneficial. Concerning plants though... Go for floaters, for stuff that cheats like lotus or Hydrocotyle leucocephala. You can look at my tank in my signature. Also use the search here on the forum to look for the Duckweed Index by @dw1305

Would keeping Apistos be any different? Something for me to look at in the future maybe.

Water and the structure for territory borders should be similar, also the choices of tankmates... all the same. Except Apistogramma are cave spawners and react much more stressed to catfish interfering with their territories and they are much more aggressive during brooding and when leading young. So it's more looking to counter negative interactions with other species.
Otherwise... it's the same habitat.

Generally: Dwarf cichlids react very sensitive to stress. Be it environmental (temp, water, lighting, boisterous tankmates, food) or their own social behaviour and hierarchy. Their immunesystems tend to fail quickly when stressed too much, bacterial infections use the opportunity, aaand that's it. Most often it's irreversable or they relapse quickly if treated with hard meds without removing the stress factors. So using antibiotics may give the owner an opportunity to provide better care and holding conditions, but just medicating alone is nonesense.

 

[MacZ]

discus mix

What exactly is in there?

 

[Jasonmc89]

What exactly is in there?

Protein (min)6.85%
Fat (min)1.55%
Fibre (max)0.9%
Moisture (max)89.3%
Ingredients: Brine, Shrimp, Krill, Mussel, Mysis, Spinach

According to the website!

They get this roughly once a week. Majority of their diet it frozen mysis and hikari viba bites or global bug bites

 

[MacZ]

Ok, "discus mix" here is a frozen mix of mussels, beef heart and shrimp.

They get this roughly once a week. Majority of their diet it frozen mysis and hikari viba bites or global bug bites

Try to feed live mosquito larvae (not the red ones/bloodworms), Artemia and Daphnia if you can, because nothing beats live food, followed by frozen food, Dry foods should not make up more than 10%, except while you're out of town and have somebody feed them for you.

 

[Jasonmc89]

Ok, "discus mix" here is a frozen mix of mussels, beef heart and shrimp.


Try to feed live mosquito larvae (not the red ones/bloodworms), Artemia and Daphnia if you can, because nothing beats live food, followed by frozen food, Dry foods should not make up more than 10%, except while you're out of town and have somebody feed them for you.

I do feed frozen artemia and daph too! Usually I feed a 50/50 mix of one of the frozen foods with dry. Pre soaked in tank water for a few minutes.

I chop all my frozen cubes into quarters and mix them all together and keep them in a tub. So it’s always a random selection. I just use a random quarter cube at a time.

So based on our conversation, would you suppose an Apisto would fare better in my current water? Or will it go the same way as the Dicrossus.

As for my remaining Dicrossus, I may wait and see what happens over the next few months or even see them up in their own separate aquarium.

 

[MacZ]

I was talking about live food.

So based on our conversation, would you suppose an Apisto would fare better in my current water?

Not in my opinion.

 

[Jasonmc89]

I was talking about live food.


Not in my opinion.

Okay. Thanks for your help.

I feel like I do not want to give up and to honour my Dicrossus I should learn to keep them correctly.

How do I go about setting up peat filtration? I think I will get my water right over the next few weeks, then purchase some filamentosus or maculatus

Cheers

 

[MacZ]

How do I go about setting up peat filtration? I think I will get my water right over the next few weeks, then purchase some filamentosus or maculatus

First do some pure RO waterchanges to get the last bit of hardness out (may take a few extra waterchanges extra as wood and substrate are soaked with the water as it is right now, you will have to passively flush them.).

Little disclaimer: Peat can not sustainably sourced and thus helps destroying priceless habitats.
Botanicals (autmn leaves, alder cones, organic rooibos) are a sustainable alternative, but they take much more time but little effort. You have time, so consider it.

It is available in garden centers in big bags for cheap, just look for peat without vertilizers.
It is also available in small overprized packages in the aquarium trade (e.g. by Eheim).
For some reason it is also sold as peat moss, which is an misnomer and can get you actual, still green or dried sphagnum moss. That doesn't do the trick.
There are mesh bags for filter media available, nylon panties are the cheap DIY alternative. Fill one or two of these bags with peat so it is about the size of your fist. Water it overnight so it can soak, then either out it in the second to last stage of a canister filter or alternatively just add them to the tank, somewhere where they get some waterflow.

Check the parameters for some days.

One more heads up to that:
pH-meters and driptests (let alone strips) do not work properly in softwater, so if you want to know what pH you are getting out of it, take a sample add some table salt (NaCl) to raise conductivity without changing pH and measure with a meter.

About the dangers:
Be aware, it is hard to get the pH below 6 as it takes lots of H+ ions. A pH-crash is almost impossible to trigger with peat or botanicals. It is more likely to cause an oxygen depletion, but for this you'd have to add so much peat or botanicals at once, it is unlikely to happen. Luckily a simple airstone can solve the problem within hours and an emergency waterchange if necessary, too. But the likelhood is very very low.

Just to have told you:
Alternatively add the following mixtur once a week over 3 months.

- 2 Liters of RO
- 20 alder cones
- 4-5 whole cattapa leaves or 10-15 beech or oak leaves
- 2 teabags of organic rooibos without aroma additives

Bring the water to a boil, add the botanicals let it cool down and steep for at least 4 hours or overnight, add the brew to the tank, as well as the leaves. The cones can be dried and used up to 3 times. The leaves should stay in the tank until completely desintegrated.

 

[Jasonmc89]

You’re amazing, thank you.

I actually have a garden with a few alder trees. Just now I have added a bunch of cones to my RO butt as it’s filling up.

Could I get good results by using alder cones and leaves such at almond and guava? Or is leaf the best way to go. I’m very aware of the damage to nature peat harvesting causes so would preferably use alternative methods.

Thanks again