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Apistogramma cacatuoides or Apistogramma agassizii? 120L long

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
I have a 120 Litre aquarium (20-30 gallon I believe), 100cmx30cmx40cm, and wondering what apistogramma to get. The aquarium is filled with rocks and has plants to help break up the line of sight. I'm wondering what species would be the best for this tank, and whether pair or group would be best.
The tank has been running for over a year, previously holding a breeding pair of kribensis.

Thanks
 

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MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
Welcome.

120 Litre aquarium (20-30 gallon I believe)
About 30. My 112 liter is 29 gallons.

Seeing what fish you keep in there, mind telling us what temperature the tank is at? I see Whitecloud Mountain Minnows and Corydoras aeneus(? or Black venezolanus?) Those are both outside the temp range of the Apistos you are asking about.
If the tank is indeed unheated Apistogramma borellii is basically your only choice, going by the regular assortments in fish stores.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
Welcome.


About 30. My 112 liter is 29 gallons.

Seeing what fish you keep in there, mind telling us what temperature the tank is at? I see Whitecloud Mountain Minnows and Corydoras aeneus(? or Black venezolanus?) Those are both outside the temp range of the Apistos you are asking about.
If the tank is indeed unheated Apistogramma borellii is basically your only choice, going by the regular assortments in fish stores.
Its kept around 24-26 °c. The tank is cooler in one end, where the wcm keep, however they do move towards the warmer end.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
and has plants to help break up the line of sight.
I can't really help with your question, but the "Ferny looking" plant on the right and middle of the tank is Selaginella sp. and you need to remove it. It isn't an aquatic plant and can't survive underwater in the long term.

cheers Darrel
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
Hi all,

I can't really help with your question, but the "Ferny looking" plant on the right and middle of the tank is Selaginella sp. and you need to remove it. It isn't an aquatic plant and can't survive underwater in the long term.

cheers Darrel
I thought those are fake. o_O Them being terrestrial explains why I thought so.

Its kept around 24-26 °c. The tank is cooler in one end, where the wcm keep, however they do move towards the warmer end.
To be frank, I'd actually pull the plug on the heater and get a group of A. borellii. That's better for the fish you already have. Otherwise I'd replace the minnows and cories first with more heat-preferring species.
Of A. borellii you could keep 3-5m,3-4f, of the other Apistogramma 1,3 or 2,0. As it's a community I'd possibly completely scratch getting females.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
Hi all,

I can't really help with your question, but the "Ferny looking" plant on the right and middle of the tank is Selaginella sp. and you need to remove it. It isn't an aquatic plant and can't survive underwater in the long term.

cheers Darrel
It's an older photo (about two or three weeks) and that plant has already been removed, but thanks.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
I thought those are fake. o_O Them being terrestrial explains why I thought so.


To be frank, I'd actually pull the plug on the heater and get a group of A. borellii. That's better for the fish you already have. Otherwise I'd replace the minnows and cories first with more heat-preferring species.
Of A. borellii you could keep 3-5m,3-4f, of the other Apistogramma 1,3 or 2,0. As it's a community I'd possibly completely scratch getting females.
As I am unable to pull the plug on the heater as there is no heater in the aquarium, I'll replace the wcm and cories.
Which of the two apistos would be the better then?
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
So it's your year-round room temperature? May I ask where you live (country is enough)?


There is no "better", when the conditions you offer suit both.
I live in England; however, I also own reptiles, and this tank sits on top of the Savannah Monitor's vivarium.

And more towards personaility of the two, because I've heard that Agassizii can be more agressive. I don't know whether that is true or not.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
Ah, I see.

I see little difference between the two species in aggression level. Generally aggression is something you will have to expect and deal with to a degree when keeping cichlids. Complete peace will never be achievable.

Maybe another factor for you to help decide: A. cacatuoides can deal with harder, more alkaline water. What are your KH, GH and pH?

Did you consider any other species? In the UK you should have more choice than these two.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
Ah, I see.

I see little difference between the two species in aggression level. Generally aggression is something you will have to expect and deal with to a degree when keeping cichlids. Complete peace will never be achievable.

Maybe another factor for you to help decide: A. cacatuoides can deal with harder, more alkaline water. What are your KH, GH and pH?

Did you consider any other species? In the UK you should have more choice than these two.
Agression is something that I know I'll have to deal with, I've had it with the kribs.

I believe that I have more towards harder water, going off what people have previously told me.
My pH stays around 7.0, GH is around 10dGH, and KH is around 9dKH.

And unless I was to order online, my lfs only gets those and even that tends to be rare.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
I believe that I have more towards harder water, going off what people have previously told me.
My pH stays around 7.0, GH is around 10dGH, and KH is around 9dKH.
Then either go A. cacatuoides, A. macmasteri or A. trifasciata.

And unless I was to order online, my lfs only gets those and even that tends to be rare.
That's a bummer.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
No need to apologize.

I see it this way:

If you want to successfully breed - Keep a mixed group or a pair (depends on species and tank size) in a species tank with - at best - a few pencilfish as dithers.

If you want to have a display tank - Take a group of an uneven number of males.
In a display tank you have several stress factors on the females: If not ready to breed females are chased by the males relentlessly. When brooding the females chase away every other fish (species doesn't matter) coming too close to the cave or the fry. On top of that, females may be aggressive among each other as well. Counting in the energy and nutrients a female has to invest in producing eggs and raising fry, all this can make a female burn out at some point. If that happens they stop eating and fall ill very easily. If you don't have the option to remove a fish at any time, this is almost inevitable to happen in some cases.

The males will still have social behaviour among each other. The uneven number (sorry, the 2 above was a typo) helps disperse aggression. I personally would probably just take one, but that's my own preference.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
No need to apologize.

I see it this way:

If you want to successfully breed - Keep a mixed group or a pair (depends on species and tank size) in a species tank with - at best - a few pencilfish as dithers.

If you want to have a display tank - Take a group of an uneven number of males.
In a display tank you have several stress factors on the females: If not ready to breed females are chased by the males relentlessly. When brooding the females chase away every other fish (species doesn't matter) coming too close to the cave or the fry. On top of that, females may be aggressive among each other as well. Counting in the energy and nutrients a female has to invest in producing eggs and raising fry, all this can make a female burn out at some point. If that happens they stop eating and fall ill very easily. If you don't have the option to remove a fish at any time, this is almost inevitable to happen in some cases.

The males will still have social behaviour among each other. The uneven number (sorry, the 2 above was a typo) helps disperse aggression. I personally would probably just take one, but that's my own preference.
If I was to go with the A. cacatuoides as that is the only ones that I can get from my lfs that you mentioned, what would be the ratio for a breeding tank and a display tank going off the ratio and the fact that there will only be pest snails and pacific blue-eyed rainbowfish at the surface once the cories and wcm are removed.
I do have tanks that I can easliy move them to if needed, incluing a 25litre with 10 guppies and a 300litre livebearer tank that the fish rarely go to the bottom off.

Thanks again.
 

anewbie

Active Member
Messages
512
I would go with borelli - they are much more passive than other mentioned species and also on the smaller size. They also have a much better personality (in my newbie experience) than cacatuoides.
--
Also if you are going to breed your apistogramma and keep cory the only cory that might work would be pygmy as they seem to much more willing to avoid conflict. However keeping pygmy with larger aggressive apisto like macmasteri might result in their death.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
I would go with borelli - they are much more passive than other mentioned species and also on the smaller size. They also have a much better personality (in my newbie experience) than cacatuoides.
My lfs do not stock them, so I'll have to try and order them online. And I've not had good experience with that, recently ordered a 3 inch krib for it to turn up late and just over an inch long.
However, I would be willing to look into it if you have a trusted one.

And what ratio would be good for the size of tank that I have?

I just want to make sure that I have it all correct.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
If I was to go with the A. cacatuoides as that is the only ones that I can get from my lfs that you mentioned, what would be the ratio for a breeding tank and a display tank
A breeding tank (which IMO should be smaller, like 60x30x40): 1,1.
Display: Uneven number 3 or more depending on the tank size.
The other fish don't matter, as long as there are no bottomdwellers besides the cichlids.

I do have tanks that I can easliy move them to if needed, incluing a 25litre with 10 guppies and a 300litre livebearer tank that the fish rarely go to the bottom off.
Smaller guppies (especially males) fit in the mouth of an A. cacatuoides. And if it fits the mouth...
I have an aversion towards livebearers and I find they do not fit together with dwarf cichlids of any kind.
 

ZanaZoola14

New Member
Messages
17
A breeding tank (which IMO should be smaller, like 60x30x40): 1,1.
Display: Uneven number 3 or more depending on the tank size.
The other fish don't matter, as long as there are no bottomdwellers besides the cichlids.


Smaller guppies (especially males) fit in the mouth of an A. cacatuoides. And if it fits the mouth...
I have an aversion towards livebearers and I find they do not fit together with dwarf cichlids of any kind.
Alright thanks, the guppies are all female and towards the large size in the 25litre (and can be moved to the 300litre if needed) and this would be temp until one of the spare tanks is up and running for them using material and filters from the other tanks to kick start it.

So current tank is too large for a breeder tank, so you'd suggest towards a display tank? And a ratio of 3(?) males because of size?
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,211
Location
Germany
So current tank is too large for a breeder tank, so you'd suggest towards a display tank? And a ratio of 3(?) males because of size?
Basically, yes. You can do 1 or 3, not 2 not 4. 5 might be too many for the tanksize already.
The tank is largely structured correctly and planted nicely, remove the LED-"UFO" as it will likely be a stress factor, also tune down the bubblers. Some extra driftwood and leaf litter would also be appreciated by the fish.
 

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