Temperature & Other information needed

[AbhisekM]

Dear Fellow Apisto Keepers,

This is Abhisek from India, an ornamental shrimp breeder from last 15+ year stepped into Apistos few months back.
As of now have following species - Panduro, Vijeita, Macmasteri.

Keeping them in 18*12*12 tanks - one pair each with soft water and sand substrate.
TDS <200ppm
PH 6.5-7
GH 5-6

Now my question is -
Weathers are in extemities in India where in summer water temperature goes above 32c and winter below 10c.

Already I have an airconditioned room for shrimps, what should be the ideal temperature range I can keep my apistos in? Shrimp tanks always stay <22c.
What could be the max on highest side one can go for apistos without harming them

 

[MacZ]

For the species you keep try to provide 24 to 27°C. Some weeks in summer up to 30°C are fine and might require additional aeration. Try to not let it drop under 23°C, though.

The water can be softer, but it's ok. You might not be able to breed the A. panduro successfully unless you drop the parameters: TDS < 100mg/l, pH < 6.5, GH/KH ~ 0°.

The likelihood your A. viejita are actually a domestic breed of A. macmasteri is very high, btw.

 

[AbhisekM]

For the species you keep try to provide 24 to 27°C. Some weeks in summer up to 30°C are fine and might require additional aeration. Try to not let it drop under 23°C, though.

The water can be softer, but it's ok. You might not be able to breed the A. panduro successfully unless you drop the parameters: TDS < 100mg/l, pH < 6.5, GH/KH ~ 0°.

The likelihood your A. viejita are actually a domestic breed of A. macmasteri is very high, btw.

Thanks Mac for the information. So Max I can go till 30c.

I may be also getting the hongsloi and nijjesni - home breed not wild caughts. Any advice on them?

The likelihood your A. viejita are actually a domestic breed of A. macmasteri is very high, btw. - I heard this from other apisto breeder also any point for distinguishing. I am planning to seperate the pairs.

 

[Frank Hättich]

The likelihood your A. viejita are actually a domestic breed of A. macmasteri is very high, btw. - I heard this from other apisto breeder also any point for distinguishing.

 

[MacZ]

I may be also getting the hongsloi and nijjesni - home breed not wild caughts. Any advice on them?

Same. Most Apistogramma have basically the same requirements.

Please be aware A. panduro and A. nijsseni are fairly monogamous but reaaaally picky about partners (may take several males until the female accepts one. On the flipside all the other species you named are polygamous, so they don't form pairs.

 

[anewbie]

hongsloi can breed in harder water than nijjesni; but not in hard water. I believe macs can breed in water noticeably harder than hongsloi and nijjensi but not sure as i've not bred them.

 

[AbhisekM]

Same. Most Apistogramma have basically the same requirements.

Please be aware A. panduro and A. nijsseni are fairly monogamous but reaaaally picky about partners (may take several males until the female accepts one. On the flipside all the other species you named are polygamous, so they don't form pairs.

Thanks I will avoid the panduro and nijsseni then to be honest.. Monogamous pair fishes is not something I am comfortable with.

Are baenschi (A188), elizabethae monogamous or polygamous?

 

[AbhisekM]

hongsloi can breed in harder water than nijjesni; but not in hard water. I believe macs can breed in water noticeably harder than hongsloi and nijjensi but not sure as i've not bred them.

Softwater shouldn't be a concern for me, as for my caridina shrimps I use RO water plus remineralizer and also have access to unlimited indian almond leaves

 

[MacZ]

Are baenschi (A188), elizabethae monogamous or polygamous?

Poly to my knowledge. You can mark polygamous up as the default as there are fewer species that are monogamous. Now that I think about it it's almost exclusively the Nijsseni-group.
Species Groups on Toms Homepage
(There's a button for the species list under the text.)

Softwater shouldn't be a concern for me, as for my caridina shrimps I use RO water plus remineralizer and also have access to unlimited indian almond leaves

Then go pure RO plus lots of leaf litter (add slow and steadily to avoid bacteria blooms) and you're all set.

 

[Mike Wise]

All nijsseni-group species - including A. baenschi - to varying degrees form breeding pairs (different from mated pairs). That being said A. baenschi females tend to be less picky about mates.

One other thing, tthe tanks' dimensions (hopefully in inches, not centimeters) that you plan to use are dangerously small for most apistos.

 

[AbhisekM]

All nijsseni-group species - including A. baenschi - to varying degrees form breeding pairs (different from mated pairs). That being said A. baenschi females tend to be less picky about mates.

One other thing, tthe tanks' dimensions (hopefully in inches, not centimeters) that you plan to use are dangerously small for most apistos.

Hi Mike, the dimensions are in inches

 

[MacZ]

The one time I did not care to convert into metric. (not an imperial user)

Then, frankly, without experience and without additional tanks to move fish to if necessary (and the smaller the tank the likelier the scenario) the tank size is too small. A footprint of 60x30cm is the minimum I'd keep a single male in, 80x35cm for a "pair" or a trio (depending on species) and for a display 100x40.

 

[AbhisekM]

The one time I did not care to convert into metric. (not an imperial user)

Then, frankly, without experience and without additional tanks to move fish to if necessary (and the smaller the tank the likelier the scenario) the tank size is too small. A footprint of 60x30cm is the minimum I'd keep a single male in, 80x35cm for a "pair" or a trio (depending on species) and for a display 100x40.

Thanks Mac for the calculation, though I have multiple empty tanks where I can shift them if needed, but 90% of my tanks are 18*12*12 inches as those are ideal for shrimp breeding.

But I got your point, I will try to make some larger tanks for them once these get into breeding mood.

 

[MacZ]

but 90% of my tanks are 18*12*12 inches as those are ideal for shrimp breeding.

Then I'd probably take the opportunity and get some bigger ones. Shrimp and cichlids are different WORLDS.

once these get into breeding mood.

Then it will be too late. Females in breeding mood are often just living terrors. You should be prepared.

 

[anewbie]

Thanks Mac for the calculation, though I have multiple empty tanks where I can shift them if needed, but 90% of my tanks are 18*12*12 inches as those are ideal for shrimp breeding.

But I got your point, I will try to make some larger tanks for them once these get into breeding mood.

The typical size that works well for many species is 12wx30lx12h (20 long); some will do ok in a 15 (different species have different aggression level) and my a. pucallpaensis have done well in a 10. However some people have had trouble with borelli in a 15 (a smaller species that is relatively passive and quite lovely but perhaps a little boring). There is a wide variance in how the aquarium is scaped and the aggression level of individual.

It isn't aggression between males (which is not relevant since you are only keeping one male) but the aggression level between male/female during the breeding cycle. Pair forming species have less m/f aggression but they tend to be larger fishes (well larger than borelli and pucallpaensis); with poly species the male will drive the female away if she is not ready to breed and the female will drive the male away if she has eggs or frys. There just isn't a lot of tender loving care between male/female and that is where a lot of deaths occur if not from direct conflict then from stress.

Also WC fishes seem to handle this better than domestic breed (or in other term i'm finding they live a lot longer); now take this with a grain of salt because i can be a bit clueless and error prone in my fish keeping conversely if a fish dies i always blame myself and feel really yucky so i try to do better the next time around.
-
I've been really happy with my family of pucallpaensis. They are not the most interesting fish nor do they require blackwater but they have done well and their aquarium has likewise done really well (i'm big on plants); and because i have them in a 10 i can stick it in a free corner on the bathroom counter Having said that unlike my D50 they hate people so you get limited viewing time; i can't keep the D50 (wc) from eating from my hand - nothing seems to phase them.

 

[AbhisekM]

Then I'd probably take the opportunity and get some bigger ones. Shrimp and cichlids are different WORLDS.


Then it will be too late. Females in breeding mood are often just living terrors. You should be prepared.

Will get it done in 2 weeks time

 

[AbhisekM]

The typical size that works well for many species is 12wx30lx12h (20 long); some will do ok in a 15 (different species have different aggression level) and my a. pucallpaensis have done well in a 10. However some people have had trouble with borelli in a 15 (a smaller species that is relatively passive and quite lovely but perhaps a little boring). There is a wide variance in how the aquarium is scaped and the aggression level of individual.

It isn't aggression between males (which is not relevant since you are only keeping one male) but the aggression level between male/female during the breeding cycle. Pair forming species have less m/f aggression but they tend to be larger fishes (well larger than borelli and pucallpaensis); with poly species the male will drive the female away if she is not ready to breed and the female will drive the male away if she has eggs or frys. There just isn't a lot of tender loving care between male/female and that is where a lot of deaths occur if not from direct conflict then from stress.

Also WC fishes seem to handle this better than domestic breed (or in other term i'm finding they live a lot longer); now take this with a grain of salt because i can be a bit clueless and error prone in my fish keeping conversely if a fish dies i always blame myself and feel really yucky so i try to do better the next time around.
-
I've been really happy with my family of pucallpaensis. They are not the most interesting fish nor do they require blackwater but they have done well and their aquarium has likewise done really well (i'm big on plants); and because i have them in a 10 i can stick it in a free corner on the bathroom counter Having said that unlike my D50 they hate people so you get limited viewing time; i can't keep the D50 (wc) from eating from my hand - nothing seems to phase them.

True, I lost few of the panduro due to this aggression, macmasteri are still doing okay for the pair but I guess larger space is what doctor's order and I will get it done