44 Gallon Stocking

[Epos7]

Hi all,

I'm in the process of setting up a 44 gallon tank (90cm x 45cm x 45cm / ~36" x 18" x 18") and would love to stock some apistos. I was hoping to do blue rams, but their ideal temperature range is above my preference of 70-80F.

Tank will be heavily planted and hardscape is Manzanita wood and Seiryu stone (probably the Chinese equivalent) which I've glued together with aquascape epoxy to create caves underneath with tall "peaks" to block lines of sight. I realize Seiryu stone is limestone and will increase carbonate hardness if not treated. I plan to coat the structures with Polygem 1618 clear epoxy sealant. I also have some river rocks I've collected and cleaned (mostly granite and non-reactive to acid) I plan to include.

My tap water is of very good quality and comes out of the tap at about 50ppm. For my existing tanks I use a RO filter and re-mineralize with KH buffer and Salty Shrimp GH+.

I'd like to set this up as a community tank with the apistos as the centerpiece fish. I was intially thinking two pairs of different species, but I've seen conflicting information on whether that would be a good idea. I also have a honey gourami I might relocate to this tank, and might add a few sparkling gouramis. For schooling fish I'm thinking rummy nose tetras, black neon tetras, and/or some smaller rainbowfish.

What should I look into as far as numbers of apistos, species, and ratio of males/females? I'd love to keep two different varieties in there if possible, but I'd also be open to keeping 2-3 of the same species.

Thanks!

 

[Epos7]

Here's my hardscape sans river rocks. Not necessarily the final layout but I taped out the area of the tank to experiment a bit. The stone mountains have feet glued on so they're stable at the bottom of the tank. I plan to fill substrate so it's just above level with the bottom of those structures.

 

[MacZ]

My tap water is of very good quality and comes out of the tap at about 50ppm. For my existing tanks I use a RO filter

50mg/l (=ppm) of what? TDS? GH? KH? Anyhow if you use RO, so why use this:

re-mineralize with KH buffer and Salty Shrimp GH+.I'd like to set this up as a community tank with the apistos as the centerpiece fish.I'd like to set this up as a community tank with the apistos as the centerpiece fish.

It's not necessary and you pay money for it. Most of our fish come from waters with TDS below 50mg/l. Even for species that come from relatively hard water TDS rarely are higher than 60-70mg/l.
The only thing you have to keep adding are humic substances which you can get from leaf litter and other botanicals for much less money or you go out and collect yourself, getting that stuff for free.

Seiryu stone (probably the Chinese equivalent)

Those are limestones, which raise GH/KH (and thus pH) over time unnecessarily.

70-80F

There are roughly 100 species of Apistogramma, some live in almost moderate climate in Argentina with water temperatures below 20°C, some live in the Amazon and orinoco basins, roughly at the equator, preferring 27-29°C. Most fall into an "ok" range of 25°C +/- 2. Once you chose a species this will clear itself.

I'd like to set this up as a community tank with the apistos as the centerpiece fish.

Then breeding is not your goal, right? Abstain from keeping pairs them. Besides the fact that most species don't form permanent pairs, the stress for all involved (all fish in the tank and you) when Apistogramma try to breed in a community tank is not what you want.

Some would say 2 males of two species looking as little alike as possible might work, I'd recommend 1 male and that's it. There's one exception: >>If correctly structured<< you might be able to keep a trio of males of Apistogramma borellii.

And stay away from domestic colour breeds, those are overbred and weak of health. You'll just have trouble with them.

I was intially thinking two pairs of different species

Just don't.

I also have a honey gourami I might relocate to this tank, and might add a few sparkling gouramis.

I personally would avoid any species that also live in the bottom section as the Apistos do. Especially if those are also territorial to an extend like sparkling gourami. To keep honey gourami and Apistogramma from getting in each other's way a higher tank might be advisable.
I select fish by habitat and continent. A mix of asian and south american species is neither what I prefer nor recommend.

For schooling fish I'm thinking rummy nose tetras, black neon tetras, and/or some smaller rainbowfish.

Petitella tetras are great in really long tanks (150cm+) and big groups (40+), where they show they famous schooling behaviour. In a shorter tank, once they acclimated, the formation is given up but as these fish are still very active swimmers you will end up with a hectical picture. Rainbows are out due to their preference for harder water.

If you want a dwarf cichlid really in the center of attention:
1 male Apistogramma of your choice
and
10-15 of species of smaller tetra, not too active, not too colourful
and/or
10-15 of a species of pencilfish.

Instead of the pencilfish you can also get a small species of Loricarid catfish, though be aware that many of them should only be added to a well seasoned tank running for at least 6-10 months with sutainable growths of aufwuchs and algae.
In a tank with the dimensions of yours, avoid gregarious bottomdwellers like loaches or corydoras, it would take a 120cm tank minimum to make that happen. Territorial bottomdwellers like sparkling gourami or gudgeons are completely out in my opinion.

 

[Epos7]

Thanks for the detailed response.

50mg/l (=ppm) of what? TDS? GH? KH? Anyhow if you use RO, so why use this:

It's not necessary and you pay money for it. Most of our fish come from waters with TDS below 50mg/l. Even for species that come from relatively hard water TDS rarely are higher than 60-70mg/l.
The only thing you have to keep adding are humic substances which you can get from leaf litter and other botanicals for much less money or you go out and collect yourself, getting that stuff for free.

50 ppm TDS. I specifically use those products in my other tanks because I keep caridina shrimp. I'm not locked in to doing the same for the new tanks.

Those are limestones, which raise GH/KH (and thus pH) over time unnecessarily.

Yes I know, as mentioned in my post. As I said, they'll be coated with epoxy so they won't affect GH/KH.

Then breeding is not your goal, right? Abstain from keeping pairs them. Besides the fact that most species don't form permanent pairs, the stress for all involved (all fish in the tank and you) when Apistogramma try to breed in a community tank is not what you want.

Correct, I'm not concerned about breeding. Will the males be less colorful without females about?

Some would say 2 males of two species looking as little alike as possible might work, I'd recommend 1 male and that's it. There's one exception: >>If correctly structured<< you might be able to keep a trio of males of Apistogramma borellii.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that layout.

And stay away from domestic colour breeds, those are overbred and weak of health. You'll just have trouble with them.

Those seem to be the most readily available unfortunately. I've seen Orange Flash, Triple Red, and Panduros locally, as well as few others that pop up sporadically. I think I'd have more selection ordering online.

I personally would avoid any species that also live in the bottom section as the Apistos do. Especially if those are also territorial to an extend like sparkling gourami. To keep honey gourami and Apistogramma from getting in each other's way a higher tank might be advisable.
I select fish by habitat and continent. A mix of asian and south american species is neither what I prefer nor recommend.

Good to know. I didn't realize the sparkling gouramis were considered territorial.

Petitella tetras are great in really long tanks (150cm+) and big groups (40+), where they show they famous schooling behaviour. In a shorter tank, once they acclimated, the formation is given up but as these fish are still very active swimmers you will end up with a hectical picture. Rainbows are out due to their preference for harder water.

Bummer about the schooling behavior, but they're still a neat fish and near the top of my list. And/or some black neon tetras.

If you want a dwarf cichlid really in the center of attention:
1 male Apistogramma of your choice
and
10-15 of species of smaller tetra, not too active, not too colourful
and/or
10-15 of a species of pencilfish.

Instead of the pencilfish you can also get a small species of Loricarid catfish, though be aware that many of them should only be added to a well seasoned tank running for at least 6-10 months with sutainable growths of aufwuchs and algae.
In a tank with the dimensions of yours, avoid gregarious bottomdwellers like loaches or corydoras, it would take a 120cm tank minimum to make that happen. Territorial bottomdwellers like sparkling gourami or gudgeons are completely out in my opinion.

Appreciate the suggestions! Didn't realize the rainbowfish have such different water requirements. They're often recommended as a companion for apistos but if their water preferences are vastly different I'll avoid them.

 

[MacZ]

Yes I know, as mentioned in my post. As I said, they'll be coated with epoxy so they won't affect GH/KH.

I blended that out somehow. Does not compute for me. The whole idea. I can understand making backgrounds from it, I can understand making whole structures from it, but it won't get in my head to coat real rocks with it. It's like an unnecessary step. Especially as rocks are not really a necessity for Apistogramma.

Will the males be less colorful without females about?

Apistogramma change colour by mood and situation. Except some domestic strains which are stuck in one colour pattern. Those fish have a communication diability. Otherwise the colours can vary a lot and change within seconds. Each species has a handful and a half different patterns.

Those seem to be the most readily available unfortunately. I've seen Orange Flash, Triple Red, and Panduros locally, as well as few others that pop up sporadically. I think I'd have more selection ordering online.

I expected that to be the case. domestic strains are massproduced. You can imagine how the genome looks. Often they have permanent health problems and die early.
A. panduro are not a domestic strain. They are a proper species. The others are colour breeds of A. cacatuoides (and frankly among the most ugly creatures man has ever bred)

Good to know. I didn't realize the sparkling gouramis were considered territorial.

As with Apistogramma and other dwarf cichlids they are mostly aggressive within their own species. BUT I've seen interspecies aggression when species competed for the same niche in a tank. And I'm sure those will get the short end when competing with Apistogramma.

 

[Epos7]

I blended that out somehow. Does not compute for me. The whole idea. I can understand making backgrounds from it, I can understand making whole structures from it, but it won't get in my head to coat real rocks with it. It's like an unnecessary step. Especially as rocks are not really a necessity for Apistogramma.

To each their own. I really like the aesthetic of the seiryu stone, and using hardscape and plants to create an interesting scene is half the fun for me. I don't expect coating them in epoxy to be much trouble, but I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't want to go to the trouble.

Apistogramma change colour by mood and situation. Except some domestic strains which are stuck in one colour pattern. Those fish have a communication diability. Otherwise the colours can vary a lot and change within seconds. Each species has a handful and a half different patterns.

I did not know that. Pretty awesome.

I expected that to be the case. domestic strains are massproduced. You can imagine how the genome looks. Often they have permanent health problems and die early.
A. panduro are not a domestic strain. They are a proper species. The others are colour breeds of A. cacatuoides (and frankly among the most ugly creatures man has ever bred)

I might keep an eye out for the panduros then. Them or the borellis. Any other species I should look for? Is macmasteri a proper species?

As with Apistogramma and other dwarf cichlids they are mostly aggressive within their own species. BUT I've seen interspecies aggression when species competed for the same niche in a tank. And I'm sure those will get the short end when competing with Apistogramma.

Thanks. I'll probably play it safe and avoid the sparkling gouramis. My experience with them has been that they're pretty timid and may get too stressed if the apisito(s) get aggressive.

 

[MacZ]

I might keep an eye out for the panduros then.

With them stick to a single male and that's it. With that scape I'd not do more.

Them or the borellis. Any other species I should look for? Is macmasteri a proper species?

Of the A. borelli several (3) might work if you make sure the structure is correct. A. macmasteri is a proper species, yes. They also often are colour breeds.
I can't recommend any specific that would work in your tank, really. It's either a single male or a trio of the A. borellii.

 

[Epos7]

With them stick to a single male and that's it. With that scape I'd not do more.


Of the A. borelli several (3) might work if you make sure the structure is correct. A. macmasteri is a proper species, yes. They also often are colour breeds.
I can't recommend any specific that would work in your tank, really. It's either a single male or a trio of the A. borellii.

Thanks. Are the borellii significantly more peaceful than other species? Just wondering what makes three male borellii work.

 

[MacZ]

Are the borellii significantly more peaceful than other species?

Not necessarily more peaceful, but smaller and less territorial. It would still require well-planned structuring. If you plan for bigger open areas or begin with relatively small amounts of plants (or in vitro), I'd step away from them as well. It all comes down to that factor.

 

[Epos7]

Not necessarily more peaceful, but smaller and less territorial. It would still require well-planned structuring. If you plan for bigger open areas or begin with relatively small amounts of plants (or in vitro), I'd step away from them as well. It all comes down to that factor.

Ah good to know. I’ve got about 30 plants cycling in a tub in the basement. Some were in vitro but I’m trying to get them adapted and growing before setting up the tank.

 

[MacZ]

I’ve got about 30 plants cycling in a tub in the basement.

30 is just number. What plants and what sizes are we talking? Depending on the plants that's not much for a tank that size. Especially in the beginning I found it most helpful to be able to stuff the tank with plants.
And with territorial fish it's a game against the clock: If you add them too early before the plants have grown in and provide reasonable cover the fish usually only respect hardscape as possible barriers and sight blocks. I'd always invest in a good number of plants and my rule of thumb is: When you think it's enough to have the tank decently planted from the start, double to quadruple the amount of plants.
On the other hand I myself do biotopes with few submerse plants and lots of driftwood and botanicals instead.

 

[Epos7]

30 is just number. What plants and what sizes are we talking? Depending on the plants that's not much for a tank that size. Especially in the beginning I found it most helpful to be able to stuff the tank with plants.
And with territorial fish it's a game against the clock: If you add them too early before the plants have grown in and provide reasonable cover the fish usually only respect hardscape as possible barriers and sight blocks. I'd always invest in a good number of plants and my rule of thumb is: When you think it's enough to have the tank decently planted from the start, double to quadruple the amount of plants.
On the other hand I myself do biotopes with few submerse plants and lots of driftwood and botanicals instead.

It's a fairly wide variety. A good number of smaller species like bucephalandra, anubias, and crypts. Some medium sized species like larger bucephalandra. For larger varieties I have a lot of stem plants. Several types of rotala, alternanthera, eusteralis, lilaeopsis, ludwigia, and sagittaria. There's typically a melting period with new plants in my experience, as a lot of them are raised commercially in emersed environments. The transition to immersed takes a few weeks/months and is why I set up the plant tub. I also plan to give the tank a few weeks after planting before adding fish.

Biological media has been seeding in a bucket for a month+. I have an air stone and heater in there, and mix in a bit of fish food and ammonium chloride daily to get the bacteria colonies started. I mixed the new media with some media from a fully cycled tank.

 

[MacZ]

Bucephalandra and Anubias are slow growers, Cryptocoryne can be too. The others are decent choices, although I would have skipped the Lilaeopsis. Floor covering plants and fish with a necessity to have access to the substrate don't go well together. Otherwise, especially with the stem-plants: Get more. Really. I know a lot of people rather want to propagate them themselves, but that's exactly why many people get imbalances in their tanks. Starting with too little plant mass.

There's typically a melting period with new plants in my experience, as a lot of them are raised commercially in emersed environments. The transition to immersed takes a few weeks/months and is why I set up the plant tub. I also plan to give the tank a few weeks after planting before adding fish.

I'd probably give the tank a month or two, adding some leaf litter and botanicals to provide surfaces for bacteria to grow (it's not all about the ones in the filter/substrate and another reason why I wouldn't use sealed rocks) and in combination with the plants that would give you a decent biofiltration.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Biological media has been seeding in a bucket for a month+. I have an air stone and heater in there, and mix in a bit of fish food and ammonium chloride daily to get the bacteria colonies started.

Just stop. Plant the tank and then wait six weeks, at that point it is fish safe.

Cycling with ammonia serves no useful purpose, the Archaea and bacteria that actually occur in aquarium filters are oligotrophic and are suppressed by high levels of ammonia.

Have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...nces-university-of-wisconsin—milwaukee.71023/">

Bucephalandra and Anubias are slow growers, Cryptocoryne can be too. The others are decent choices, although I would have skipped the Lilaeopsis. Floor covering plants and fish with a necessity to have access to the substrate don't go well together. Otherwise, especially with the stem-plants: Get more. Really. I know a lot of people rather want to propagate them themselves, but that's exactly why many people get imbalances in their tanks. Starting with too little plant mass.

Same for me, more plants I'm obsessed with floating plants.

cheers Darrel

 

[MacZ]

Same for me, more plants I'm obsessed with floating plants.

Because floaters are the best. Simply put. Floating plants or floating leaves and anything that can grow out of the water. Nothing better to get a tank into a well seasoned state.

 

[Epos7]

Hi all,

Just stop. Plant the tank and then wait six weeks, at that point it is fish safe.

Cycling with ammonia serves no useful purpose, the Archaea and bacteria that actually occur in aquarium filters are oligotrophic and are suppressed by high levels of ammonia.

Have a look at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/correspondence-with-dr-ryan-newton-school-of-freshwater-sciences-university-of-wisconsin—milwaukee.71023/">

Interesting. Thanks for the link. I'm a bit confused (or missing the part of the thread you were referring to) but that link seems to corroborate what I'm doing.

If you do need to add nitrifiers the best source is from an aquaponics or aquaculture system that is already running and removing ammonia. Some water or sediment/soil or part of the biobilter (if there is one) is an excellent starter.

In some lab tests we found that adding previous material from a running biofilter could reduce ammonia oxidation start-up time from 2-3 weeks to 2-3 days.​

This is exactly what I'm doing with the bucket and biological media. I don't see any mention of ammonium chloride as a source other than the thread author mentioning he doesn't like to use it. I don't see it mentioned in the response from Ryan Newton. I am using it at pretty low rates, much lower than the label specifies. I'll do some ammonia/nitrite tests on my bucket soon and see if it's been effective.

 

[Epos7]

Because floaters are the best. Simply put. Floating plants or floating leaves and anything that can grow out of the water. Nothing better to get a tank into a well seasoned state.

I need to get some more red root floaters. I removed them from one of my tanks in an effort to get better surface flow but forgot to save a few.

I do have a tank with a big anubias that has several large (5-6") leaves above the water.

 

[MacZ]

I don't see any mention of ammonium chloride as a source other than the thread author mentioning he doesn't like to use it.

Darrell mentioned "adding ammonia" to cycle tanks in his mail and that implies also the use of ammonium chloride. Biochemically that doesn't make much difference, as depending on pH NH3 can be present as NH4 as well and Ammonium chloride is nothing but a pH-stable form of bioavailable NH3.

The gist of the communiction between Darrell and Dr. Newton is: Neither adding Ammonia, nor adding starter bacteria is necessary. Dr. Newton recommends either jump starting with already established media (from a stable, running system) or by adding plants.

That's why I mentioned getting more plants and adding botanicals, as those will be colonised quickly by the microorganisms from the plants that decompose them, as the botanicals are the fuel (natural decomposition products) themselves. The combination is a no-effort-method. Only takes patience, not much more than needed otherwise, but the result is a much more stable system that has the community of bacteria as it would develop in the tank already in situ.

What you did in the bucket is not sustainable. The composition of bacteria species will change as they adapt to the conditions in the filter once you set up the tank. They will also be used to higher ammonia levels, so the species that are used to those will simply die off, making room for more frugal species. But those will first have to build up bigger colonies in replacing the others. So... you might at best have saved a week.

 

[MacZ]

I do have a tank with a big anubias that has several large (5-6") leaves above the water.

There's basically nothing green growing underneath this.

 

[Epos7]

Darrell mentioned "adding ammonia" to cycle tanks in his mail and that implies also the use of ammonium chloride. Biochemically that doesn't make much difference, as depending on pH NH3 can be present as NH4 as well and Ammonium chloride is nothing but a pH-stable form of bioavailable NH3.

The gist of the communiction between Darrell and Dr. Newton is: Neither adding Ammonia, nor adding starter bacteria is necessary. Dr. Newton recommends either jump starting with already established media (from a stable, running system) or by adding plants.

That's why I mentioned getting more plants and adding botanicals, as those will be colonised quickly by the microorganisms from the plants that decompose them, as the botanicals are the fuel (natural decomposition products) themselves. The combination is a no-effort-method. Only takes patience, not much more than needed otherwise, but the result is a much more stable system that has the community of bacteria as it would develop in the tank already in situ.

What you did in the bucket is not sustainable. The composition of bacteria species will change as they adapt to the conditions in the filter once you set up the tank. They will also be used to higher ammonia levels, so the species that are used to those will simply die off, making room for more frugal species. But those will first have to build up bigger colonies in replacing the others. So... you might at best have saved a week.

Ah well, I'm still a few weeks away from getting the tank set up so I'll probably just keep the media bubbling away but stop adding ammonia.

Part of the reason I've bought plants ahead of time is due to the weather this time of year in my part of the world. It's prone to extended periods below freezing where shipping live plants isn't feasible, so I've been ordering plants when the weather (and forecast) allow.

The other reason is propagation. As you mentioned it's best to heavily plant a tank when first set up. There are a few ways to accomplish this - one is to buy a lot of plants. The other, cheaper method is to buy the plant species you want ahead of time and propagate them. This is what I'm doing with my stem plants