Returning to hobby, keen to keep Apistogrammas

[AJDux]

Hi all, thanks for for having me here and thanks in advance for the advice!

Im returning to the hobby after a decade and i've picked up a Lido 200 (70cm length, 55cm depth, 60cm height), and I'm really taken with setting it up for Apistos, due to the height of the tank I feel from the research I've done already i should be safe with some dithers? (hatchetfish,pencils... Maybe tetras and otos). Tank will be low tech, well planted and plenty of hardscape.

What would be the recommended start point for me? My LFS has a good selection, agasazzi, Macmasteri, borelli, cockatoo etc. (I've read a bit about maybe avoiding the overly refined and inbred commercial varieties, but which are these please?)

With these varieties and 4ft square footprint, would a pair be best, or harem... Or single male, maybe two males if that's even possible with the right hardscaping???

I'm keen to lean into setting it up for Apistos with plenty of leaf litter etc. and welcome any input.

 

[anewbie]

Of the species you named borelli is the best bet esp if you want multiple male/female; though I would start with a male/female and then keep some of the frys forming a colony.

 

[MacZ]

The Lido is unfortunately not very suitable to house dwarf cichlids. A ratio of 2:1 (length:depth) is much more suitable. Usually I advise to keep only a single male in that tank model, as you can't really divide the footprint the way you would need to give the cichlids structure.

My LFS has a good selection, agasazzi, Macmasteri, borelli, cockatoo etc. (I've read a bit about maybe avoiding the overly refined and inbred commercial varieties, but which are these please?)

I wouldn't call them refined. Rather degenerated, but you are on point: These fish have a lot of negative aspects to them from bad health (because breeders ignore negative health effects as long as the fish show the desired looks) to high aggression (because they bred them to have a fixed set of colours and are unable to communicate with their colour change-abilities anymore.).
As @anewbie said, A. borellii are a good option, as they are probably the only species that is not going nuts with territorial aggression.

With these varieties and 4ft square footprint, would a pair be best, or harem... Or single male, maybe two males if that's even possible with the right hardscaping???

For an all male tank you shpuld always consider uneven numbers, or even number higher than 4. In your tank I would advise to do only a single male, then you have free choice of species and no social conflict induced losses to expect.
In any combination that might lead to a fish being ousted (m/f with a female not ready to breed, m/f with a brooding female, several ff or mm with too little/wrong structure) you should have a second tank to separate them at any time.
Otherwise the suppressed fish is almost guaranteed to be shoved into a corner, will be constantly harrassed and attacked if it comes out, e.g. at feeding time. They stop feeding, become apathetic, reclusive to a corner and wither away, because they get sick when their immune systems crash from the stress.

(hatchetfish,pencils... Maybe tetras and otos)

Hatchets and Pencils always work, but Nannostomus will need structure from floating plants and small branches hanging in the water at the surface, because they can be quite territorial.
When it comes to tetras, maybe focus on the rather high-backed ones like the Hyphessobrycon bentosi or H. erythrostigma-species groups or go for Megalamphodus sp. (Phantom tetras), because they don't need very long tanks and can work with the lack of distance they can swim.

Keep in mind Otocinclus are food specialists, which usually starve to death in tanks that haven't got a sustainable layer of aufwuchs. They are extremely hard to feed with supplementory foods and time is against you since the moment they were caught in the wild (yes, they are 95% wild caught, because nobody has figured out how to breed them in suitable numbers for commercial sale.) A tank takes about 6 months to develop that layer of aufwuchs. A tank like yours will be able to sustain 2-3 Otocinclus, though a healthy group size would be 10-15 or more. There are other, easier small catfish like Otothyropsis piribebuy or the genus Parotocinclus. All of them only have one thing in common: They lack the armour of their bigger Pleco cousins, so a brooding female Apistogramma is able to take out one of these fish with ease.

So if you are fine with a single male, like the look of a biotope botanical tank with leaf litter and lots of wood, combined with some Nannostomus or Tetras. That would be the route to take.

 

[anewbie]

The Lido is unfortunately not very suitable to house dwarf cichlids. A ratio of 2:1 (length:depth) is much more suitable. Usually I advise to keep only a single male in that tank model, as you can't really divide the footprint the way you would need to give the cichlids structure.

One thing i wanted to point out is the floor space is 27x21 and while the overall shape is not great the floor space is suitable for non-aggressive smaller species presuming it is well scaped. Personally i prefer 48x24 (my units are inches); but i've had ok success with 30x12 (20 long or 29); Unfortunately the species listed is not very broad. I think if i had to order them with regards to overall and intra aggression i would put them as:
borelli, cockatoo, mac, agaszii unfortunately there is wide variance in each species so you can end up with quite a bit of issue with borelli and none at all with agasazzil; you did list etc so perhaps there are other alternatives.

My winkefleck were pretty much as aggressive as hongsloi i've had and definitely not passive with regards to male chasing female; though with extremely dense vals and hornworth she found plenty of places to hide high. I eventually moved them to 48x24 and he still chases a bit but usually stops after 30 inches or so - so if the chasee goes to the back it stops quick enough (in my case i started with 2 but the female proved infertile and adding a 2nd female resulted in semi-frequent breeding). Of the species i've owned the a. sp blutkehl so far have been the most docile (by a wide margin); though in truth the ortegai (hybrid) i had were also relative passive in a 48x16 aquarium with all 3 females breeding at the same time (weird dynamics the 2 subdominant females actually got along quite well together but the dominant female was a bit of a monster).

Anyway if i had to pick and if available i'd go for a nice borelli or a pair of nijjensi (which have always been a favorite of mine for some reason). In the case of nijjensi you would definitely want to limit yourself to 1m 1f as other combinations won't end well.

 

[MacZ]

In the case of nijjensi you would definitely want to limit yourself to 1m 1f as other combinations won't end well.

A. nijsseni. Your autocorrect always butchers the name.

 

[AJDux]

Thankyou both, I greatly appreciate your input. So a single male, or mayyyybe a pair of borelli
I'll give it some thought, perhaps Apistos just sent the right choice, I'd rather less interesting fish that are healthy, than interesting fish that are stressed, unfortunately I've made that mistake in the past.

If I may digress a little from apistos, With regards to the otos..... We have 4 currently in a 10 gallon (purchased against my advice....) there was a severe algae bloom in the tank and these were advised by LFS to my wife. I've since researched and understand the tank is too small and the numbers too few. They are small 2-3cm and have healthy pearly bellies, but I cannot get them to actively eat algae wafers, blanched cucumber, avocado etc.
I had planned to move them into the 'big' tank and reinforce their numbers... However if that is an unlikely solution I think it may be best to try to move them on? The location we are planning for the 200l will receive a good deal of natural sunlight.

 

[MacZ]

If I may digress a little from apistos, With regards to the otos..... We have 4 currently in a 10 gallon (purchased against my advice....) there was a severe algae bloom in the tank and these were advised by LFS to my wife.

... right into the trap. Unfortunate. Any blooms should be tackled first by tweaking nutrients, lights and CO2 (provided the latter is added artificially). Also not every so-called algae-eater actually eats the algae in question, so many of them have to be target-fed and just add to the tank's bioload. That's why I always tell people not to get a "clean-up crew". Just adding animals many people don't want and just think are functional. Biggest problem with Otos: They don't eat just algae, but aufwuchs, which is a mix of bacteriafilms, algae and many other microorganisms, in a layer that covers most surfaces.

I've since researched and understand the tank is too small and the numbers too few. They are small 2-3cm and have healthy pearly bellies, but I cannot get them to actively eat algae wafers, blanched cucumber, avocado etc.

Yeah, typical. Most people don't get them to eat any foods provided and all this stuff would have to be offered 24/7, putting massive strain on the water quality of a tank.

I had planned to move them into the 'big' tank and reinforce their numbers... However if that is an unlikely solution I think it may be best to try to move them on?

Either leave them alone in the small tank or give them to someone with a big, long-running and seasoned tank.

The location we are planning for the 200l will receive a good deal of natural sunlight.

Please don't. That's not a good idea in my opinion. Just causing problems of all kinds.

 

[Yvonne G]

Welcome!

 

[anewbie]

Another very passive species you could consider if availalbe:
a. pucallpaensis

These are i believe under-rated readily available in many areas and passive. I kept a small group in a 10.

As for oto; the bigger trap is the idea they eat algae. They will graze will algae is as well as decaying leaves and wood and i believe they are mostly eating the biofilm and not the actual algae.