Apistos and Rams

[Gary H]

Hello everyone,

I'm returning to the hobby after many years and about to start setting up a new tank. Previously I had a pair of Ram and Agassizi cichlids in a community tank with mostly tetras. Maybe I just wasn't aware 15 years ago that Agassizi cichlids were part of a group called Apistos or maybe the other varieties weren't readily available. I'm pleasantly surprised at the options available. I've dismissed Kribs for this set up, the only other dwarf cichlid I was aware of.

Short question - What advice/experience do others have mixing Rams and Apistos in a medium sized (320l) tank? Numbers, genders, species, how to introduce etc. No intention to breed, just to enjoy pretty fish.

More detail - Tank size 140x40x60. External filter. Planted with 20-30 Vallis, Amazon Swords and Sagittaria. Initially intend to set up gradually with 10 Corydoras (Julii are my preference), 8-12 Black Widow Tetra and a couple of Bristlenose. All being well I can then add around 12 dwarf cichlids and finally 8-12 Angelfish. I anticipate setting this up over 3 to 4 months.

The initial fish are readily available locally but the Cichlids may be purchased online. Current plan, due to postage, is to add all the dwarfs in month 3 and then all the angels in month 4. Is this unwise?

Any comments greatly appreciated.

 

[MacZ]

Welcome!

Some notes:
On catfish

Catfish in Apisto Tanks

What are good choices of catfish for an Apisto tank? I was thinking more along the lines of an algae eater or something to clean up uneaten food. Most Cories seem too large or meddlesome.

apistogramma.com

Short Version: For Corydoras the tank has to be big - check. Plecos and other rather nocturnal catfish are out, as diurnal fish like cichlids get disturbed at night (and stress being a big health factor for them) and they compete with the cichlids for caves.

What advice/experience do others have mixing Rams and Apistos in a medium sized (320l) tank? Numbers, genders, species, how to introduce etc. No intention to breed, just to enjoy pretty fish.

If you don't want to breed (which is actually kind of madness in a tank that size) I'd rather go for one-sex groups, obviously males. Considering the average territory sizes you might be able to squeeze in 3-5 males, if the tank is correctly structured. You would definitely have to introduce them all at once.
I any case, please have a second tank at hand to remove specimens if necessary.
That also means: It might not work adding more than one species. And the idea of adding 12 dwarf cichlids is pretty much off the table right from the start.

10 Corydoras (Julii are my preference)

You will not get that species. True C. julii haven't been available in the hobby for over a decade and considering the region they come from being not very developed in terms of fish collection, I doubt this will change any time soon. In the trade you will have a 90% chance of the fish sold as C. julii being actually C. trilineatus and 10% of them being C. leopardus. If you really want to try and introduce more than one species of dwarf cichlid... I'd forgo on the catfish altogether, instead going for more tetras.

a couple of Bristlenose

As said above not a good idea, also if you get one, stick to one (1!), because your planned stocking means you will not have any predators that go for baby plecos. Ancistrus tend to breed masses.

The initial fish are readily available locally but the Cichlids may be purchased online. Current plan, due to postage, is to add all the dwarfs in month 3 and then all the angels in month 4. Is this unwise?

The only thing unwise about it, is that it might be a good idea setting up a quarantine tank. Your list is not short and all of the fish are known to carry different typical diseases and/or parasites even if purchaed from a good source. Pterophyllum and dwarf cichlids barely get into each other's ways.

Planted with 20-30 Vallis, Amazon Swords and Sagittaria.

You've chosen fish that prefer, nay even require, access to the substrate, I'd rather recomment plants like Nymphaea lotus, Hydrocotyle leucocephala (let those float and/or anchor them to wood), floaters, and epiphytes. Combined with a sand bottom and leaf litter. Also you might want to add a lot more plant matter from the start to give the tank actually the chance to run stable.

 

[Gary H]

Welcome!

Some notes:
On catfish

Catfish in Apisto Tanks

What are good choices of catfish for an Apisto tank? I was thinking more along the lines of an algae eater or something to clean up uneaten food. Most Cories seem too large or meddlesome.

apistogramma.com

Short Version: For Corydoras the tank has to be big - check. Plecos and other rather nocturnal catfish are out, as diurnal fish like cichlids get disturbed at night (and stress being a big health factor for them) and they compete with the cichlids for caves.


If you don't want to breed (which is actually kind of madness in a tank that size) I'd rather go for one-sex groups, obviously males. Considering the average territory sizes you might be able to squeeze in 3-5 males, if the tank is correctly structured. You would definitely have to introduce them all at once.
I any case, please have a second tank at hand to remove specimens if necessary.
That also means: It might not work adding more than one species. And the idea of adding 12 dwarf cichlids is pretty much off the table right from the start.


You will not get that species. True C. julii haven't been available in the hobby for over a decade and considering the region they come from being not very developed in terms of fish collection, I doubt this will change any time soon. In the trade you will have a 90% chance of the fish sold as C. julii being actually C. trilineatus and 10% of them being C. leopardus. If you really want to try and introduce more than one species of dwarf cichlid... I'd forgo on the catfish altogether, instead going for more tetras.


As said above not a good idea, also if you get one, stick to one (1!), because your planned stocking means you will not have any predators that go for baby plecos. Ancistrus tend to breed masses.


The only thing unwise about it, is that it might be a good idea setting up a quarantine tank. Your list is not short and all of the fish are known to carry different typical diseases and/or parasites even if purchaed from a good source. Pterophyllum and dwarf cichlids barely get into each other's ways.


You've chosen fish that prefer, nay even require, access to the substrate, I'd rather recomment plants like Nymphaea lotus, Hydrocotyle leucocephala (let those float and/or anchor them to wood), floaters, and epiphytes. Combined with a sand bottom and leaf litter. Also you might want to add a lot more plant matter from the start to give the tank actually the chance to run stable.

Thank you for the comprehensive reply, there's plenty to think about!

I've asked in 2 local aquarium shops and none of the above was mentioned. They felt the quantity and mix was good for the size of tank, but both were unsure about the Apistos/Ram mix. Its always good to get the opinion of someone who isn't selling!

 

[anewbie]

Are you talking about bolivan rams or blue rams? I only ask because if blue rams the temp is much warmer and of course you will need very specific species of fishes that can tolerate the warmer temps.

 

[MacZ]

local aquarium shops

Almost all stores will not give you any answers that will diminish their profit. My advice goes for less fish, less species and cheap and easy plants and decor.

Its always good to get the opinion of someone who isn't selling!

Exactly that. I have to mention though: I have a reputation for low stress display tanks, with low stocking density and biotope inspired stocking and decor. All my advice is down to these principles.

I want the fish to have a long, stressless live instead of the usual 6-10 months that dwarf cichlids tend to survive in a tank of somebody who didn't care to tailor the tank to their needs. Stress is killer no. 1 for dwarf cichlids, be it environmental or social stress.

Are you talking about bolivan rams or blue rams? I only ask because if blue rams the temp is much warmer and of course you will need very specific species of fishes that can tolerate the warmer temps.

This is also a fair point.

 

[Gary H]

Are you talking about bolivan rams or blue rams? I only ask because if blue rams the temp is much warmer and of course you will need very specific species of fishes that can tolerate the warmer temps.

Ahh... More choices! Thanks for educating me further, I was just going to get some rams. A quick google confirms that I must be more specific and ask for Bolivian rams.

 

[MacZ]

And if I may give you a recommendation: Go for Mikrogeophagus altispinosus. M. ramirezi (the classic "ram") has become a finnicky, copy-paste massproduced, genetically weak result of inbreeding, which usually doesn't make it longer than a few months after purchase.

 

[Gary H]

Almost all stores will not give you any answers that will diminish their profit. My advice goes for less fish, less species and cheap and easy plants and decor.


Exactly that. I have to mention though: I have a reputation for low stress display tanks, with low stocking density and biotope inspired stocking and decor. All my advice is down to these principles.

I want the fish to have a long, stressless live instead of the usual 6-10 months that dwarf cichlids tend to survive in a tank of somebody who didn't care to tailor the tank to their needs. Stress is killer no. 1 for dwarf cichlids, be it environmental or social stress.


This is also a fair point.

Would you consider the tank overstocked without the dwarf cichlids? I wouldn't be concerned with a larger number of tetras and forgo the dwarfs, but they are pretty fish.

 

[anewbie]

And if I may give you a recommendation: Go for Mikrogeophagus altispinosus. M. ramirezi (the classic "ram") has become a finnicky, copy-paste massproduced, genetically weak result of inbreeding, which usually doesn't make it longer than a few months after purchase.

Well.... the blue rams i have (m. ramirezi) are of course wild caught and not mass produced any more than any other wild caught fish. However they are more finnicky than some fishes i have but less than others. Of course if you want an easy to keep dwarf cichild i'd go with keyholes or laetacara araguaiae. Even wild caught l. araguaiae (which i have) will do well in not ultra soft water; though they are a bit moody at time
like most cichild.

Btw recently I think bolivian rams were split into two species (though I can't find the link now) but a fish commonly sold as m. altispinosus turned out to be a different species.

 

[MacZ]

Would you consider the tank overstocked without the dwarf cichlids?

Not at all.

Here's what I would stock the tank with, if I went only by possible stocking density. If it was to my taste I'd probably scratch 2-3 species from each proposal.

Option 1 (no cichlids):
- 10-15 high-backed Tetras like G. ternetzi or H. erythrostigma
- 20-40 smaller Tetras like H. herbertaxelrodi or P. simulans
- 20 midsized Corydoras
- 2 Plecos like Panaqolus maccus or Peckoltia vitatta OR 5-6 Rhineloricaria lanceolata OR 10 Parotocinclus sp.

Option 2 (dwarf cichlids)
- 15 high-backed Tetras like G. ternetzi or H. erythrostigma
- 20-30 smaller Tetras like H. herbertaxelrodi or P. simulans
- 1-3 male dwarf cichlids of a more docile species like M. altispinosus or L. curviceps
- 10 Parotocinclus sp.

Option 3 (bigger cichlids)
- 15-20 high-backed Tetras like G. ternetzi or H. erythrostigma
- 6 Cleithracara maronii or Mesonauta sp.
- 10 Parotocinclus sp. OR 5-6 Rhineloricaria lanceolata
- 15 midsized Corydoras

Well.... the blue rams i have (m. ramirezi) are of course wild caught and not mass produced any more than any other wild caught fish.

I know, but I won't recomment wild caught M. ramirezi to somebody lacking the experience. That would end devastating to the person and fish alike.

Of course if you want an easy to keep dwarf cichild i'd go with keyholes or laetacara araguaiae.

Well, look what I already typed in my recommendations.

 

[MacZ]

Btw recently I think bolivian rams were split into two species (though I can't find the link now) but a fish commonly sold as m. altispinosus turned out to be a different species.

Half true. The new species M. maculicauda is barely ever found in the trade, it was a shipment of wild caught fish that got scientists to describe the new species. In the trade you mostly get tankbred M. altispinosus.

 

[anewbie]

Be aware that many pleco are wood eating pleco such as Panaqolus maccus and soft driftwood must be provided.

Also two of my favorite pleco are L128 (commonly called blue-phantom) and L204 (flash or emperor pleco).

Be aware that many of the exotic plecos require special conditions and temepratures so if you buy some randomly pretty looking pleco do the research first.

Attached is one of my L204:

 

[MacZ]

Be aware that many pleco are wood eating pleco such as Panaqolus maccus and soft driftwood must be provided.

True, though let's face it: Such a tank without wood, is barely even possible.

 

[Gary H]

Be aware that many pleco are wood eating pleco such as Panaqolus maccus and soft driftwood must be provided.

Also two of my favorite pleco are L128 (commonly called blue-phantom) and L204 (flash or emperor pleco).

Be aware that many of the exotic plecos require special conditions and temepratures so if you buy some randomly pretty looking pleco do the research first.

Attached is one of my L204:

View attachment 15085

I went through many plecs in my youth although I've no idea what species most of them were. Some grew large and some stayed small. I found them easy to care for. As well as a community tank I had a 600l tank with larger plecs which slowly went from silver dollars to tinfoil barbs to medium cichlids. All were sold on except for a royal and sailfin plec which reached around 10"/20cm. These eventually happily shared with a rather friendly and large tiger oscar. I was offered a red tailed catfish in exchange for the oscar, around the same size as the plecs. That was my only catastrophic mistake in fishkeeping and I'm now cautious of what I don't know.

 

[Gary H]

Option 1 (no cichlids):
- 10-15 high-backed Tetras like G. ternetzi or H. erythrostigma
- 20-40 smaller Tetras like H. herbertaxelrodi or P. simulans
- 20 midsized Corydoras
- 2 Plecos like Panaqolus maccus or Peckoltia vitatta OR 5-6 Rhineloricaria lanceolata OR 10 Parotocinclus sp.

After much consideration (and googling Latin names) this isn't far off what I had hoped for. I will substitute the smaller tetras with angelfish, so not entirely cichlid free. I recognise the pleco varieties and have had them before. From your advice I think it will be one bristlenose plus another, stripy, variety. The irony is not lost on me that I have decided against dwarf cichlids on a dwarf cichlid community site! They're beautiful fish but clearly can't be kept as I had envisaged. Thank you again for taking the time to enlighten me.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

You've chosen fish that prefer, nay even require, access to the substrate, I'd rather recomment plants like Nymphaea lotus, Hydrocotyle leucocephala (let those float and/or anchor them to wood), floaters, and epiphytes. Combined with a sand bottom and leaf litter. Also you might want to add a lot more plant matter from the start to give the tank actually the chance to run stable.

That one. I'm also a <"great moss fan">.

Planted with 20-30 Vallis, Amazon Swords and Sagittaria.

What is your water like in terms of hardness (dGH), alkalinity (dKH) and conductivity (micro S. ~"ppm TDS"). If you are located in the UK? and don't know? An approximate location is all I need.

The reason I ask is that Vallisneria isn't a <"fan of soft water">. You could replace it with a <"Cryptocoryne spp.">. I like <"Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia">, but most will do.

Initially intend to set up gradually with 10 Corydoras (Julii are my preference), 8-12 Black Widow Tetra and a couple of Bristlenose. All being well I can then add around 12 dwarf cichlids and finally 8-12 Angelfish.

I know it is a strange reply for this forum, but I would just leave out the Dwarf Cichlids, and then I can see that stocking working.

I anticipate setting this up over 3 to 4 months.

Good idea.

You can just add the plants, the structural leaf litter and wood and then just run the tank normally until the plants have grown in. Once they've grown in, start adding the fish.

You don't need to cycle the tank with ammonia (NH3), in fact I would very strongly recommend that you don't.

The whole ammonia based cycling premise is based on "best guess" science from the 1980s, but scientist now know a lot more about the actual nitrifying microbes that exist in aquariums.

There is a fuller discussion of this at <"https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/correspondence-with-dr-ryan-newton-school-of-freshwater-sciences-university-of-wisconsin—milwaukee.71023/">

cheers Darrel

 

[Gary H]

What is your water like in terms of hardness (dGH), alkalinity (dKH) and conductivity (micro S. ~"ppm TDS"). If you are located in the UK? and don't know? An approximate location is all I need.

My water knowledge is based on looking in my kettle. I used to live in Wiltshire where the kettle was constantly full of scale, I'm now living in Barry, The Vale Of Glamorgan where the kettle is clear, and the tea and coffee taste better. According to Welsh Water my water is slightly hard with a pH of 7.75. I don't know what conductivity, with regards to water, is.
My plant knowledge is limited to swords, vallis, cabomba, sigitaria and crypts. I'm happy to use crypts instead of vallis.

I know it is a strange reply for this forum, but I would just leave out the Dwarf Cichlids, and then I can see that stocking working.

Thank you. You have just confirmed my own conclusion when replying to MacZ.

You can just add the plants, the structural leaf litter and wood and then just run the tank normally until the plants have grown in

I'm planning to grow the plants using aquasoil (this is new to me but recommended by a local fish shop) in small terracotta pots (8cm) at the rear of the tank with bogwood and rocks immediately in front, in a diagonal arrangement. The sagitaria will be planted in the gaps. This will leave plenty of open sand for the corydoras to play and hopefully it will be aesthetically pleasing. Is the leaf litter essential, it seems messy?

 

[MacZ]

The irony is not lost on me that I have decided against dwarf cichlids on a dwarf cichlid community site!

As one of my professors used to say: "A negative result is still a result!". So if your short stint here has lead you to make an informed decision against keeping dwarf cichlids, there is no irony in it from my point of view.

From your advice I think it will be one bristlenose plus another, stripy, variety.

Maybe stick to one species there too, they can be territorial. Although many species will not show for months until you think they're dead and the suddenly they reappear right at the front glass.

I'm planning to grow the plants using aquasoil (this is new to me but recommended by a local fish shop)

Funnily enough, this kind of recommendation has lead to people believing live plants are nothing for beginners in some countries. Sand will do it just as well. Soil has some properties that will shake up your water parameters for months until the stuff has depleted. It is designed to be used with very soft water of KH 0 and GH very low, to house certain Caridina shrimp. that it contains a lot of nutrients for plants is more or less a side effect and well throught through fertilizer regimen is probably easier than dealing with the results of soil doing its thing.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Is the leaf litter essential, it seems messy?

Short answer: Your fish can definitely survive without leaf litter. And they would really benefit from it.

The decision partly depends on whether you want the environment to be closer to the natural habitat or not. A lot of prevailing aesthetics in the broader aquarium hobby lean toward arrangements that don't resemble the fish's native environment.

Of course, nature is messy. I don't mean to say that there's no room for aesthetics and composition in a more natural tank. There are some really nice examples of biotope aquariums that compete in aquascaping competitions. I tend to prefer that look to the more manicured style.

My approach is: The animals come first. You're more likely to see natural behaviors the more accurately you can replicate native conditions (within reason). Leaf litter has <a lot of benefits>, so I personally wouldn't consider going without it. But ultimately, it's up to you!

Cheers

 

[anewbie]

After much consideration (and googling Latin names) this isn't far off what I had hoped for. I will substitute the smaller tetras with angelfish, so not entirely cichlid free. I recognise the pleco varieties and have had them before. From your advice I think it will be one bristlenose plus another, stripy, variety. The irony is not lost on me that I have decided against dwarf cichlids on a dwarf cichlid community site! They're beautiful fish but clearly can't be kept as I had envisaged. Thank you again for taking the time to enlighten me.

If you go this route i would avoid the 'red' Rhineloricaria lanceolata; bred mostly in asia; as far as i can tell they are a mess genetically since a lot are being cross-bred to produce larger spawns. Naturally Mac provided a species name but in the trade many are known as red whip tails or similar. Of course if you were to buy true Rhineloricaria lanceolata that would be another story.

As for leaf litter it depends on what type of aquarium you wish to setup. If you go with option 1 it isn't as necessary - i have several tanks with a *lot* of leaf litter that i think are nicely scapped; this is not one i think is 'nice' but it just one i happen to have on my computer which is of course easire to post than running downstairs and taking a picture


--
or you could do one like this:

--
or well you can do one anyway you wish. Where leaves help a lot is with dwarf cichild who are aggressive to each other (as is the case with most polygamous species) and they can dart under the leaves as needed to escape. There are of course benefits with water chemistry and other aspects but for the #1 option you mentioned they are not critical (imho); though it never hurts. While not shown in this picture i do have quite a few leaves in the lower tank (now); though it mostly has a few green neon tetra (one of these days i'll be adding a bunch of cory hastatus). However in the aquarium with a. (cf?) ortegai the matter is different and the leaves really help in regards to the fish health et all (both water chemistry and other matters).