Possible tankmates for new tank (130 liters)

[deco]

Hi all, i am quite new here and only recently discovered this nice community.
I looked around a bit without posting becaues ppl here is far more expert than me

I had an aquarium maybe 5-10 years ago and i was quite successful, it slowly evolved from a community tank (i was a total beginner) to an amazon community tank, and despite some little and big errors, in the long run the aquarium was stable and nice.

Now that i am a bit older and i have my own house, i decided to give new life to my old aquarium, but this time i'd like to be a bit more serious and creating a cichlid blackwater tank.

So, my 130 liters (34gallons) planned aquarium will be composed of sand/small gravel, some bogwood, many places to hide, some dried oak leaves, some peat in the filter (my filter is quite big so i have space for it), and a yet-to-decide number of plants to give hiding place etc.

My target water values are very low GH and KH (maybe 2-6) and low PH to encourage breeding (i think PH6 could be a reasonable value), and temperature as high as cichlids ask.

The purpose would be to have a nice aquarium in which cichlids could eventually breed.
I really like hankh setup:
http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/showthread.php?11710-My-BW-CW-50-gallon-tank/page2
it would be something similar, with maybe a bank-like side to offer some more hiding places.

My "core" inhabitants would be:

1) 1M+1F of apistogramma nijsseni (first choice)
Possible alternatives: 1m+2f ap. agassizi OR something more of ap. trifasciata (maybe 2m+3/4f??)

2) 1M+2F of dicrossus filamentosus

Dither fishes: a school of Carnegiella Marthae (8-10)

Completion of the setup: 1 school of Paracheirodon Simulans and/or 1 school of Corydoras Habrosus.

My first (of many...) question is about cohabitation.

I think that dicrossus should live with nijsseni without many problems (they are quite different).
The dither fishes school i think is ok (is it really? any suggestion welcome)
My biggest concern is about the Corydoras: will they compete with Cichlids on the bottom? will they hunt for fries? Habrosus are really really small fishes (about 3cm TL).
Second concern: do you think that Paracheirodon Simulans is a good choice? Better using a school of some species of Nannostomus? Or not using anything else at all?
Aquarium is 130L, 88cm long (Askoll Tenerife 88).

Thank you very much in advance :biggrin:

 

[Mike Wise]

First, welcome as a participating member of the apisto forum. First, a community tank is not a good breeding tank. You probably can keep D. filamentosus with A. nijsseni, but I would not. A. nijsseni is fairly aggressive for an apisto. When a pair bonds for breeding, they will 'gang up' on any fish that they consider a threat to their fry. This will also include any cichlid, and bottom-dwelling fish, like Corydoras. Paracheirodon simulans, like most schooling species from blackwater, are good fry predators. I would not recommend them for a breeding tank. If you really want to try this community, then do so. I would expect you to get fry to survive. If I wanted a community tank that had a good chance of producing fry, I would use Otocinclus instead of Corydoras and pencilfish instead of a school of tetras.

 

[deco]

Since i am a beginner, any suggestion is very precious for me, so thank you very much
Answers:
1) Cichlids
I'd really like to have 2 species to experience 2 different cichlids, but if it's not possible i could give up on this. Do you think that the other species of apisto i mentioned are less aggressive? For example maybe the smaller Trifasciata need a smaller "breeding area", if this makes any sense?
2) Other fishes
In this area i have no problems. I can "abandon" Corys at all, and put inside Otos (btw, maybe the eat some algas ).
I was thinking about Carnegiella because in my idea they would fill the upper part of the aquarium... and are quite peaceful for a tetra (as far as i read).
Do pencilfishes swim in the middle or in the top?

Edit: i am not en english native speaker, so sorry for any mistake...

 

[Mike Wise]

I believe that A. trifasciata or A. agassizii would be a better fit with D. filamentosus. Neither species forms breeding pairs. I see no problem with Carnegiella species; they are an ideal community member. Pencilfish tend to stay in the middle and top parts of the aquarium. It really depends on the species. They do not hund fry (except possibly N. beckfordi).

 

[deco]

I took a bit of time to do a bit of research, because i didnt know there were so many species of Nannostomus...
From what I understood the most "blackwaterish" of the known species is the Trifasciatus.

So, I could go with:

• 1M+2F D.Filamentosus
• 2M+2-3F Apisto Trifasciata
• 6-8 Carnegiella Marthae
• 6-8 Nannostomus Trifasciatus
• Some Otocinclus (5-6?)

Obviously i wont start putting alltogether... i'll start with otos and pencilfishes, then Apistogramma Trifasciata, then Filamentosus, and if there's enough room (exact setup is yet to be decided) Carnegiella.

What do you think? Could it work?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I think it is still too many fish. I'd definitely go for just one species of cichlid and only one male. Personally I'd go for 1 male Apistogramma trifasciata and up to 5 females, it may be a small species but A. trifasciata is quite aggressive.

Dicrossus filamentosus are beautiful fish, but more difficult to keep, and especially spawn successfully.

The dithers and Otocinclus are fine, but all of these need good quality water and for the Hatchets and Pencils a diet involving lots of live food (a wingless Fruit fly culture is useful). Otocinclus need a planted tank and supplementary feeding with vegetables. One of the main problems with Otocinclus is that they don't tend to do very well during transport or in the LFS, so you need to get them from a "fish keeper with a shop", rather than a "shop keeper with fish".

You may struggle to find N. trifasciatus, either N. eques or N. marginatus might be easier to find and just as good.

Any Pencil/Splash Tetra would be all right, other than N. beckfordii.

If you are in the UK, PM me and I can sort you out some live food cultures.

cheers Darrel

 

[deco]

Mmm... still thinking and searching...
Ap. Trifasciata is not exactly from Rio Negro basin (like Filamentosus, Trifasciatus, Carnegiella, etc.)...

see for example (second is in italian but there's a map):
http://www.discoverlife.org/mp/20m?...SpeciesSummary.php:;q:;id:;e:;26703&b=FB26703
http://www.ciclidinani.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=43

do you know if it's a blackwater fish?
It would be sad to create a blackwater tank to host and eventually breed some apistogramma and discover that Trifasciata are not exactly blackwater fishes and breed also in PH6.5 water with GH10 :/

About "too many fishes" you are right. I need to change something... abandon Hatchets? (i am a bit scared from the "jump" thing... even if my aquarium is with top cover)

I am from Italy. There are some good aquarium stores in North Italy, i hope i can find something...

Thank you all
Daniele

 

[deco]

UPDATE: cut&paste from mongabay about trifasciata:

HAB : Inhabits black water lagoons and ponds along that have leafy bottom. South America; Southwestern Brazil in the headwaters of the Paraguay and the Guapore Rivers.

It's confirmed that's from southern part of the amazon basin, but it's clearly from blackwater

And, btw, found these wonderful fishes, N. Mortenthaleri (although they cost really a lot, about 10€ each here in italy):

that come from a completely different part of amazon but, according to http://apisto.sites.no/fish.aspx?fishIndexID=2190&gruppeID=5

1. In my tanks, they live in tanks with pH from 4,2 - 6,5. I see no difference in behavior as the pH varies, except that fry only grow up in the tank where the pH is below 5,5. Others have breed them in pH 6,5.
2. They are perfect dithers to dwarf cichlids; they don't bother the cichlids, and the cichlids don't bother them.
3. Where they share a tank with Apistogramma elizabethae, the water is pre-filtered through peat, very soft, and with a pH of 4,2 - 5,5. Here they breed, and a few of the fry grow up now and then.

I dont want to say that i want to breed these fishes (a lot of ppl is trying to breed them with very lo success), but i think that they like black water (like their cousins Nannostomus).

Since my setup will be (i suppose) strongly themed towards red/orange, these fishes are very tempting... for "orange themed" i mean like this one:

 

[deco]

Paracheirodon simulans, like most schooling species from blackwater, are good fry predators. I would not recommend them for a breeding tank.

Sorry, i dont want to bother you... just to be sure and keep together all the info i gather on the internet.
I am speaking of the "Paracheirodon Simulans" aka "Green Neon Tetra", max langth 2.5cm (1 inch).
Here i read:

It also makes an ideal dither species for Apistogramma and other dwarf cichlids, and shouldn't pose a threat to any fry.

What do you think? Are we speaking of the same fish?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
No, Apistogramma trifasciata isn't a black water fish as such, doesn't come from the Amazon and doesn't require extreme water conditions. I think it comes from the vegetated waters in the Panatanal, Mato Grosso, Paraguay, N. Argentina etc. Both Mayland and Bork <http://dwarfcichlid.com/Book_reviews.php> and Linke and Staeck mention vegetated and the latter says "the biotopes for this fish was comparable in so far that the specimens were exclusively found amongst the cover provided by dense vegetation and I think black waters are free of living plants, other than the occasional floaters.

There are plenty of black water Apistogramma spp., but because they need specialised water and care they don't tend to be widely available. Not sure about in Italy, but in the UK A. baenschi is widely available and definitely a black water fish.

"Rio Huallaga" would be the collection location.

I see you've visited all ready but Tom C's web site <http://apisto.sites.no/>, has all sorts of good stuff on it, about fish, biotopes etc and I would recommend reading all of it.

Also worth having a look at Bob's dwarfcichlid.com (from the books link).

Best of luck Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Should also of said nearly all black water fish are opportunistic feeders and eat whatever they can find, which means black water tetras tend to be effective fry hunters. I think Hatchets, Splash Tetras and Pencils all tend to eat mainly terrestrial insects, that have ended up on the water surface, and tend to be a lot more surface orientated.

cheers Darrel

 

[Mike Wise]

Yes, P. simulans is a peaceful community tank fish. In a breeding tank situation a school of these tetras can slowly decimate a school of apisto fry. One tetra will try to grab a fry. The female apisto will drive the tetra away. While the female apisto is away from the school of fry, other tetras will 'pick off' some of the unprotected fry. It can be a slow process, 1 - 5 fry per day, but it isn't unusual for most of the fry to be eaten.

If you truly want to simulate a Rio Negro biotope, then you will not have many rooted aquatic plants. Apisto habitats are mostly a mix of submerged wood and leaf litter and not rooted plants. Many of the hatchetfishes (Carnegiella) and Pencilfishes are found in the Negro together with several apistos. D. filamentosus, however, is more restricted with regard to symtopic species. Most of the apisto species found with D. filamentosus are less common in the aquarium trade.

I think that you need to decide: (1) do you want a true biotope aquarium where all of the species are found with each other in the wild and (2) which fish do I want most? Once you decide these 2 questions, it will be easier to answer your stocking question.

 

[deco]

Ok, you are all right. My fault because my ideas are a bit fuzzy.

The key points I'd like to keep are:

1. A south-american blackwater biotope, i dont care about the exact river, Rio Negro is only the most famous and so i started from Rio Negro and his tributaries
2. I'd really like a true biotope with only species from the same river, but since is my first blackwater tank i dont want to have too many "difficult" species because i dont know if i can handle them... moreover, i know that i can supply frozen food but i could supply live food only for a limited amount of time (i.e. to fry, or to induce breeding, or maybe once a week).
3. Last but not least, i want (at list one pair of) Apisto because i'd like to see their breeding behaviour. I dont know if I will ever see that, but I'd like a setup that is "breeding-friendly"

Secondary (but important) points:

1. The tank will be on a side of my living room, so I'd like to have some colorful fishes (like most apistos). This is why I'm looking for a colorful schooling fish.
2. In my original idea, the exact biotope is the bank (maybe correct term is shore?) of a blackwater creek/litte river. So in the left part i imagined many woods (or maybe one big with his roots), and a "bank" with some high plants (cabomba furcata) that rapidly goes down with some submerged "erbs" (echinodorus tenellus). In the right part of the aquarium there's the bottom of the river, with its white sand and leaf litter. The tank should be almost like the one that i posted below, but without the "symmetrical" feeling (all high plants at the extreme left, low plants on middle left, sand and leaves on right).

So, in this scenario I'd like to have one true blackwater apisto with some companions that serve both as dither fishes and as "filler" for the rest of the aquarium.
Bonus points if:

• the dwarf cichlid of choice is small, so I can have more than a pair
• dither fishes are schooling fishes
• in the whole tank there are more than 2 species of fishes

I hope that now my fuzzy ideas are a bit more clear.

Never considered A. baenschi, dont know if it's easy to find in Italy but if it's my "main fish" i can struggle and eventually travel a bit :wink: (there are great aquarium stores in Nice and Cannes, at about 180km from me).

I can consider Baenschi but... my main problem is... where can i find info on what fishes come from same river or river basin? The choice of Rio Negro was also because you can easily find on fishbase.org a list of species found in the Rio Negro basin...

Thank you all

 

[deco]

Update:
I just found there is a thread in this forum exactly regarding a Rio Huallaga biotope:
http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/showthread.php?9900-New-Rio-Huallaga-Peru-Biotope/page2

It's done with N. marginatus and A. baenschei, no plants at all, only floating.

Update: there is also Otocinclus

I will keep you up to date with my findings

 

[deco]

Another update: in same area (according to discoverlife.org, not so easy to use but powerful) lives also Carnegiella Strigata
Update: it seems that it only lives in areas with lot of floating plants...

 

[Mike Wise]

I see a problem. You want a pretty community tank (nothing wrong with that!) that is a tank for breeding apistos. The problem: a community tank is not a breeding tank. You may get a few fry to survive, but not large numbers. If you are willing to accept only a few fry, then try a community tank set-up. First find a fish that you really want. Then research what other fish are found with it and try to get them, too. Examples: A. bitaeniata with N. marginata & C. strigata. TomC, Julio Melgar, & I collected these fish together near Leticia, Colombia. All should be possible to find commercially.

 

[deco]

Cooool

I think i can accept the fact that some fry will be lost... when i'll find some more space maybe I'll create also a "pure" breeding tank.

I saw the article of your collecting, there are also photos, from which i can take inspiration for the tank setup!

By the way, this is very similar to my idea:

a bank/shore with some "grass-like" plants, and a deeper part with leaves!!


Thank you very much, Bitaeniata is very nice and i can definitely follow your suggestions.
It's very special for me to recreate a group of fishes that really live together in nature.

I didnt know you are such an apistoexpert, so double thanks for helping an apistonewbie like me

On that site i found also:

No problem having several males in a 160 liters tank (if provided with lots of structure/territory dividers like plants and wood), and I let the fry grow up in the same tank, with the oher fish.

Supposing to put inside also some C.Strigata and N.Marginatus, how many fishes should I have? maybe 2 males and 3-4 females?

 

[deco]

Update: i am reading just now http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/A-bitaeniata.html with your emails to the apisto mailing list...

 

[deco]

Maybe it's better only one male and 2-3 females to limit aggression? without taking ibto account that often rare apistos are sold in pair....

 

[Mike Wise]

Since your aquarium is only 88 cm long, I would suggest only 1m + 2-3f. It really depends on how much structure (hiding places + territorial boundaries) you build into the aquarium.