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Stocking question

anewbie

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1,384
I'm just starting to setup the 48inch x 30 inch aquarium. it will have hth substrate - my target stocking is right now:
3 male Shishita Bitaeniata and 5 females
20 to 30 hatchet fishes since the tank is fully enclosed and 0 chance they will jump out:
-
question: will Mortenthaleri pencil fishes - maybe 5-8 males and 10 females (i know the males fight but they will have a fair amount of area)
question: will a pair of Dicrossus work or will they fight with the shishita bitaeniata in an aquarium this large ?
 

MacZ

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Germany
I'm pretty sure a female Dicrossus will be lost due to it's size (they stay smaller than female A. bitaeniata, while more than one male in that tank size is not going to work.
The biggest problem is the similarities between the males of the Apistogramma and the Dicrossus: Both have lyre tails and the Apistogramma's lateral stripe is reminiscent of the stripe of an aggressive Dicrossus.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,384
I'm pretty sure a female Dicrossus will be lost due to it's size (they stay smaller than female A. bitaeniata, while more than one male in that tank size is not going to work.
The biggest problem is the similarities between the males of the Apistogramma and the Dicrossus: Both have lyre tails and the Apistogramma's lateral stripe is reminiscent of the stripe of an aggressive Dicrossus.
When you say more than one male isn't going to work - you mean the plan for 3 male apisto and 5 females ? It was my crude understanding that this species aggression level was low enough to permit such in a tank of this size but perhaps i was mistaken ?
 

MacZ

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Location
Germany
When you say more than one male isn't going to work - you mean the plan for 3 male apisto and 5 females ? It was my crude understanding that this species aggression level was low enough to permit such in a tank of this size but perhaps i was mistaken ?
I mean more than one male Dicrossus.
Concerning the Apistos among themselves... would probably go 150cm, but that's your call.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,384
I mean more than one male Dicrossus.
Concerning the Apistos among themselves... would probably go 150cm, but that's your call.
Can't change the aquarium; only the stocking. Now I've gotten confused - the question was the apisto 3 male 5 female and 1 pair (2) dicrossus. You said more than 1 male would not work but 1 pair would only have 1 male but then you pointed out they were similar to the apisto so you don't really advise it or are you suggesting that a single pair would work with the apisto.
--
As for the apisto you think 3 male and 5 females is risky - would abaxis work instead (again 3 males and some number of females - i'm just throwing out 5)? also do you think the red coral pencil are ok?
 

MacZ

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I'm saying Dicrossus might not work at all. Because the females can't compete with the Apistogramma and the males might get mixed signals from the Apistogramma males.
Why I mentioned "no more than 1 male Dicrossus": a. because the likelihood to get a sexed pair is small. and b. if you get 2 male Dicrossus due to sexing complications, they will not work out together.

As for the apisto you think 3 male and 5 females is risky - would abaxis work instead (again 3 males and some number of females - i'm just throwing out 5)?
The species doesn't really matter in my opinion.

also do you think the red coral pencil are ok?
Yes, those should work out. Make sure to have enough twigs in fpr structure and territory borders.
 

anewbie

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1,384
The species doesn't really matter in my opinion.

.
Ok i won't consider the dicrossus. I am however a bit confused with the above comment. Some species of apistogramma are clearly more aggressive than others or require larger territory so in that sense it should matter which species i choose. Now it might be that 48x30 is not large enough for 3 males of any species but i suspect that is not the case; the open question is which species. While i'm not interested in borelli for this tank they would probably work from my first hand experience; and i've know nijjensi are quite aggressive and almost certainly would not work as well as triffa; however I hope one of abaxsis, Bitaeniata or megaptera would work --

@Tom C for example writes this about apistogramma cf. bitaeniata:
--
No problem having several males in a 160 liters tank (if provided with lots of structure/territory dividers like plants and wood). I let the fry grow up in the same tank, with the oher fish.

--
Now I don't know if that includes females or if Shishita Bitaeniata will have the same behavior.
 

Mike Wise

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By 48 x 30 inches (1.2 x 0.75m) I'm guessing that this is an 80 to 100 gallon (320 to 400 liter) tank. With that much space - and proper decor - it should be possible to keep 3 + 5 of most polygamous apisto species 'relatively safely'. Just keep an eye out for apistos that lose out on gaining a territory.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,384
By 48 x 30 inches (1.2 x 0.75m) I'm guessing that this is an 80 to 100 gallon (320 to 400 liter) tank. With that much space - and proper decor - it should be possible to keep 3 + 5 of most polygamous apisto species 'relatively safely'. Just keep an eye out for apistos that lose out on gaining a territory.
Thank you. The height is 17 inches so around 100 gallons. I'll take it picture as soon as i fill it - ro system has been problematic.
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
283
I had also read that extract from Tom C page. I can only confirm that the pencilfish will be fine.
 

MacZ

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Messages
3,002
Location
Germany
I am however a bit confused with the above comment. Some species of apistogramma are clearly more aggressive than others or require larger territory so in that sense it should matter which species i choose. Now it might be that 48x30 is not large enough for 3 males of any species but i suspect that is not the case; the open question is which species.
My reasoning is: In that tank footprint ranking by aggression potential is propably not helping. Especially as the potential to be aggressive is linked to the tank size in captivity. So a usually rather docile species in the wild (and/or bigger tanks) may become really aggressive in too confined spaces. As I've also seen fish (in general, not only cichlids) behave much more passive and peaceful than I've been told in advance, and vice versa, it's simply a non-factor for me.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Now I've gotten confused - the question was the apisto 3 male 5 female and 1 pair (2) dicrossus.
I don't think you can keep both.

Three male / five female bitaeniata sounds like it might work. I would note what @Mike Wise and @Tom C say, you would need to keep a close eye on aggression and "- and proper decor" "if provided with lots of structure/territory dividers like plants and wood".

Personally I like really weedy tanks. I don't really care if I only get occasional glimpses of the fish, if I can't see them. and they can't see one another, things are likely to be more successful.

cheers Darrel
 

Tom C

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5 Year Member
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584
Location
Norway
@Tom C for example writes this about apistogramma cf. bitaeniata:
--
No problem having several males in a 160 liters tank (if provided with lots of structure/territory dividers like plants and wood). I let the fry grow up in the same tank, with the oher fish.
Yes, the small group of A. cf. bitaeniata was a valuable experience.
If you keep pairs or smaller groups, you would have to consider lines of sight, territory borders and markers etc. etc.
If you go for a BIG colony, you won't have to think about all that.
All the individuals will realize that there are far too many fish in the tank for it to be possible to claim a territory and defend it.
In addition, many Apistogramma are used to living parts of their lives in large groups, without this entailing aggression and violence. Many are, for example, trapped together in small residual water during a long dry period. There the challenge is not to get along with each other, but to not end up on the menu of the huge Crenichicla or Hoplias which are often trapped in the same water...
And thousands of Apistogramma have been observed migrating together, over long distances, without this causing problems between them.

This is from a few of my tanks. Not at all quality photos, but they illustrate my point. They all contain both males and females. It's also quite nice to watch the high number of fish sleeping peacefully on the crowded ground at night.

A. cf. personata (Caquetá/Japurá).
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
Around 15 specimens, both sexes. Absolutely no aggression within the group more than raising the dorsal fin and sometimes gently chase another specimen up to 10 cm away if the other one comes too close (3-5 cm) too long.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D23.
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
A little more than 25 fishes in the tank now. A mix of wild very old fishes, F1 and F2 generations. A little gently chasing, but no aggression. Many fry grow up here.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D37 (Inirida)
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
Photo at feeding time.
Around 50 fishes. A mix of wild ones and F1 from several different females. A little chasing when fishes breed, but no agression. Females with fry always move to the rear, dark part of the tank, where they keep other fishes on a certain distance.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D48.
Tank: 160 liter, footprint 100x40cm
I'll guess there are 50-70 specimens there.
Absolutely no aggression, hardly any chasing exept sometimes a gentle chasing away from the nearest 5 cm of a fish.
Yellow females claim a territory of around 5x5cm, where they care for fry. Sometimes, when they move to the rear part of the tank with the fry, some of the fry grow up.
Feeding time:
resizeimage.aspx


A photo from the same tank now (the plants has been changed a little), showing how few fishes I normally see in this tank. But when they see me approaching the tank, they all come to the front in case I bring food.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D61:
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
Photo at feeding time. No aggression in the tank. I'll guess around 30 specimens. Females sometimes breed, but no fry grow up so far. (The white spots in the photo are on the front glass, not on the fish!)
resizeimage.aspx


I recently had a very small A. psammophila female breeding and raising all her 21 fry in a 160 liter with more than 10 other adult specimens in the tank. Now she is raising fry again; all the 21 fry from her first batch are around, but are chased away if they come too close to the new fry. She keeps one end, 1/4 of the tank, free from other adult specimens. The tank is very open, but very peaceful.

And I could tell you about my 25+ adult A. sp. Segelflossen in a 160 liter tank, where fry grow up all the time.
And my 20+ A. sp. Cuiari in their 160 liter. They killed almost every tetra I have tried as dither fish, but live peacefully with each other.
And there are others...

In some larger groups no fry grow up. And when I bring home wild fishes, I often put 5 of each sex in one tank.
After a while, in both cases, there will be some males and females showing more interest for each other, than for other fishes...
When I want fry, I can just pick up one of those "pairs" and move them to a separate tank. They will often spawn immediately, and bring up 100+ fry... if I want them to.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,384
Yes, the small group of A. cf. bitaeniata was a valuable experience.
If you keep pairs or smaller groups, you would have to consider lines of sight, territory borders and markers etc. etc.
If you go for a BIG colony, you won't have to think about all that.
All the individuals will realize that there are far too many fish in the tank for it to be possible to claim a territory and defend it.
In addition, many Apistogramma are used to living parts of their lives in large groups, without this entailing aggression and violence. Many are, for example, trapped together in small residual water during a long dry period. There the challenge is not to get along with each other, but to not end up on the menu of the huge Crenichicla or Hoplias which are often trapped in the same water...
And thousands of Apistogramma have been observed migrating together, over long distances, without this causing problems between them.

This is from a few of my tanks. Not at all quality photos, but they illustrate my point. They all contain both males and females. It's also quite nice to watch the high number of fish sleeping peacefully on the crowded ground at night.

A. cf. personata (Caquetá/Japurá).
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
Around 15 specimens, both sexes. Absolutely no aggression within the group more than raising the dorsal fin and sometimes gently chase another specimen up to 10 cm away if the other one comes too close (3-5 cm) too long.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D23.
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
A little more than 25 fishes in the tank now. A mix of wild very old fishes, F1 and F2 generations. A little gently chasing, but no aggression. Many fry grow up here.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D37 (Inirida)
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
Photo at feeding time.
Around 50 fishes. A mix of wild ones and F1 from several different females. A little chasing when fishes breed, but no agression. Females with fry always move to the rear, dark part of the tank, where they keep other fishes on a certain distance.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D48.
Tank: 160 liter, footprint 100x40cm
I'll guess there are 50-70 specimens there.
Absolutely no aggression, hardly any chasing exept sometimes a gentle chasing away from the nearest 5 cm of a fish.
Yellow females claim a territory of around 5x5cm, where they care for fry. Sometimes, when they move to the rear part of the tank with the fry, some of the fry grow up.
Feeding time:
resizeimage.aspx


A photo from the same tank now (the plants has been changed a little), showing how few fishes I normally see in this tank. But when they see me approaching the tank, they all come to the front in case I bring food.
resizeimage.aspx


A. sp. D61:
Tank: 132 liter, footprint 75x50cm
Photo at feeding time. No aggression in the tank. I'll guess around 30 specimens. Females sometimes breed, but no fry grow up so far. (The white spots in the photo are on the front glass, not on the fish!)
resizeimage.aspx


I recently had a very small A. psammophila female breeding and raising all her 21 fry in a 160 liter with more than 10 other adult specimens in the tank. Now she is raising fry again; all the 21 fry from her first batch are around, but are chased away if they come too close to the new fry. She keeps one end, 1/4 of the tank, free from other adult specimens. The tank is very open, but very peaceful.

And I could tell you about my 25+ adult A. sp. Segelflossen in a 160 liter tank, where fry grow up all the time.
And my 20+ A. sp. Cuiari in their 160 liter. They killed almost every tetra I have tried as dither fish, but live peacefully with each other.
And there are others...

In some larger groups no fry grow up. And when I bring home wild fishes, I often put 5 of each sex in one tank.
After a while, in both cases, there will be some males and females showing more interest for each other, than for other fishes...
When I want fry, I can just pick up one of those "pairs" and move them to a separate tank. They will often spawn immediately, and bring up 100+ fry... if I want them to.
In my specific case how many do you recommend (males and females); i'd like enough room for some fry rearing. Also do you think bitaeniata or abacaixis would work better or both equally well. I mention these species based on current availability. I'll likely make a purchase in 3 weeks unless things go wrong and stocking will change. My hope is to have 15 to 20 pencil fishes and similar number of hatchet fishes in the same aquarium. The tank size is 30inch (76cm) front to back and 48inches (121 cm) side to side. I'll post pictures once i add some water - the ro unit i ordered came without o-rings and they are sending them.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,218
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Do you want a community of fish or a tank for breeding? If breeding is more important, the note what Tom wrote, "When I want fry, I can just pick up one of those "pairs" and move them to a separate tank. They will often spawn immediately, and bring up 100+ fry... if I want them to."
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,384
Do you want a community of fish or a tank for breeding? If breeding is more important, the note what Tom wrote, "When I want fry, I can just pick up one of those "pairs" and move them to a separate tank. They will often spawn immediately, and bring up 100+ fry... if I want them to."
Oh - i saw the part where he had a female breeding with the group with success - missed that he was also removing pairs to also breed them. In the perfect world there would be enough room for some successful breeding - so it would be nice if a few frys made it but not too many. If i didn't want breeding at all I would use cardinals instead of pencil fishes and add a few whiptails which i love.
-
So the simple answer is it would be nice if a few had successful spawns and i'll give them some bbs but breeding is not the high priority - the tank is too large to dedicate to just a pair.
-
And yea the D61 are nice looking.
 

Tom C

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584
Location
Norway
In my specific case how many do you recommend (males and females); i'd like enough room for some fry rearing. Also do you think bitaeniata or abacaixis would work better or both equally well.
In that tank I would simply start with 2 pairs. They'll have space to bring up loads of fry, and after a while you'll have 200+ fishes in the tank, if you want.
As I have experiences with A. (cf.) bitaeniata and similar fish, and know that it might work, it would be more interesting for me to see if you could make it work with the A. sp. Abacaxis!

Oh - i saw the part where he had a female breeding with the group with success - missed that he was also removing pairs to also breed them.
You are right. I wrote about moving a pair to another tank from "....some larger groups [where] no fry grow up".
I don't need to remove pairs of the A. psammophila, A. sp. D48 or A. sp. D23 to other tanks to breed; enough fry grow up in the tank to maintain the number os fishes, even if I regularly give away or sell some of them.

... those d61 are absolutely beautiful.
Agree, they are among my favorites! Father and son:
resizeimage.aspx

I'll happily give you a pair, Rasmus, if you want (and if we find a way to bring them from Norway to you).
May I ask in which part of Denmark you live?
 

rasmusW

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5 Year Member
Messages
463
In that tank I would simply start with 2 pairs. They'll have space to bring up loads of fry, and after a while you'll have 200+ fishes in the tank, if you want.
As I have experiences with A. (cf.) bitaeniata and similar fish, and know that it might work, it would be more interesting for me to see if you could make it work with the A. sp. Abacaxis!


You are right. I wrote about moving a pair to another tank from "....some larger groups [where] no fry grow up".
I don't need to remove pairs of the A. psammophila, A. sp. D48 or A. sp. D23 to other tanks to breed; enough fry grow up in the tank to maintain the number os fishes, even if I regularly give away or sell some of them.


Agree, they are among my favorites! Father and son:
resizeimage.aspx

I'll happily give you a pair, Rasmus, if you want (and if we find a way to bring them from Norway to you).
May I ask in which part of Denmark you live?
Uhh!! That sounds amazing.
I’m writing a pm for you now.

-r
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,384
In that tank I would simply start with 2 pairs. They'll have space to bring up loads of fry, and after a while you'll have 200+ fishes in the tank, if you want.
As I have experiences with A. (cf.) bitaeniata and similar fish, and know that it might work, it would be more interesting for me to see if you could make it work with the A. sp. Abacaxis!


You are right. I wrote about moving a pair to another tank from "....some larger groups [where] no fry grow up".
I don't need to remove pairs of the A. psammophila, A. sp. D48 or A. sp. D23 to other tanks to breed; enough fry grow up in the tank to maintain the number os fishes, even if I regularly give away or sell some of them.


Agree, they are among my favorites! Father and son:
resizeimage.aspx

I'll happily give you a pair, Rasmus, if you want (and if we find a way to bring them from Norway to you).
May I ask in which part of Denmark you live?
Totally unrelated but why are dad and son together like that - i would think being mature they would be far apart - i.e., what is it about their behavior that makes two mature males stay in close proximity.
 

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