i've hit that wall....

[Bad-Daddio]

i've been lurking around here a long time but i've never posted. so first off, a big hello to everyone. i've been keeping central american cichlids most of my life. i've kept and bred more species than i can keep track of. i've stayed away from anything south american because i didn't want to mess with water parameters, etc. any and all manner of central will work in my water so i just took the easy way out and stuck with them. apistos have always fascinated me but i've avoided them. well, i've been thinking about it for quite a while and i've read a ton of information on this forum. i'm ready to take the plunge into apistos.

i have a standard 30 gallon tank that i would like to stock with apistos. the problem is, as i quite often do, i've read too much. i've packed my head with too much information. i have over-thought it. so i turn to you all for help.

i have not tested the hardness of my water but in my current setups, the water comes out of the tap at a PH of 6.7 - 6.9, a few days after water changes it tests out at 6.2 - 6.4. i'm not opposed to adjusting my parameters for a lower PH and i will test the hardness soon so i know what i'm dealing with there but i don't want to go to the extreme and keep any blackwater species yet. i'm sure i'll get there though.

if at all possible, i'd really like to have pairs of two different species of apistos. if that won't work, i'd like to have at least a trio, maybe even 1M/3F of one species, if that's not too much

one other preference - i tend to like fish that you don't see every day. cacs are really cool and if that was my only option, i'd go for it. but if i could make something a little more rare, something you don't see every day work, that would be my first choice.

so, given those parameters, what would you do with a 30 gallon tank?

thanks for your time!

scott

 

[Hudson Ensz]

WOW!!! It looks like you have done some research!!!
A thirty gallon tank is at least good for a trio but you could probably breed two seperate species DEPENDING ON THE TYPE OF APISTO YOU CHOOSE. I would say look for some apistos that look good and post them here so that we can help you better. There are over 70 (i cant remember very well the exact number) species and only a handful of these can you find with any regularity. Apistogramma bitaeniata is a striking fish and isnt too hard to find i dont think. Or you could get some aggies, those are striking.
I hope other more knowledgeable people can help you much better then i did,
Hudson

 

[Mike Wise]

I think that Hudson has the right idea: look at the different species out there and pick the ones that appeal to you. Then check which species will work with your water. I imagine that it can't be too hard if it is slightly acidic. If you don't have any books on d.c.s then check out this site: http://www.rva.jp/zukan/apisto/0-apistogramma-top.htm. It's in Japanese. Just click on the green Japanese characters on the left. The apisto names are in Roman characters.

 

[Bad-Daddio]

thanks for the replies. excellent suggestion on the bitaeniata. that's probably the one that made me finally decide to keep apistos. however, i don't want to jump right into a species that would require me to play with my water chemistry too much. from what i've read, they require a PH somewhere around 5. does anyone know of an easy cross-reference for PH? meaning, do you know a site, list, etc where i could plug in a PH range and see what apistos meet the requirements? with so many apistos, i could spend days looking them up and finding their PH requirements...

 

[tjudy]

I think that the best choice for a first apisto, especially if you do nto want to soften the water, is a good tank strain of A. cacatuoides. A. borelli would work too, but I do not think I would mix them because the cacs are more boisterous and the shy borelli may suffer.

Another species that comes around occasionally that I have never had problems spawning in harder water is the A. sp. 'rotpunkt' (also called 'scwartzsaum' I think). It is also a bit aggressive, so it may mix well with cacs. Hybridization? I am not sure.

 

[jose_vogel]

As Mike and Ted said, cacatuoides, borellii and sp. "rotpunkt" breed very easy. I must add to their list cf. eunotus (every morph).

 

[Mike Wise]

Most of the apistos that come from the lower Amazon of Brazil around Óbidos to Santarem will work well in slightly harder water: A. (cf.) caetei forms (there are some very colorful forms), A. (cf.) taeniata & sp. Wangenflecken forms. Even some of the A. (cf.) agassizii forms do well. The main problem with these it that they are hard to find commercially.

 

[apistodave]

water

Bad-dude your water is perfect! Same as mine-it should be around max 100ppm and no Kh, while everyone is listing the good beginner fish, I am sure you could keep anything in that water, a little peat and you could incl Rio Negro fish

 

[Bad-Daddio]

thanks for the replies everyone. nice suggestions.

dave, as with anyone who has done any reading on the net about apistos, i've looked over your site and have read about the water you get right from the cascades. i live in the foothills of the cascades, only quite a bit north of you (granite falls, WA). i know the water could be quite different, but i'm hoping that it's not

i've just returned from a particularly long and grueling search and rescue mission (in those same cascade mountains ) and i'm planning to shut the computer down and sleep for about a day and a half. after that, i'll test out the hardness and see what we're dealing with. the more i think about though, even if my water is going to be difficult to adjust, i'm probably going to just go for it. i think i might want the challenge.

one apisto that has jumped out at me is the mamore/erythrura. i'm going to look into the requirements for those when i wake up.....

 

[apistodave]

water

I really doubt that its different as the geology is identical

 

[Bad-Daddio]

so, i just tested my tap water.

turns out, it's pretty soft. the GH is around 50ppm and the KH is between 1 and 2 degrees. given that, i now kind of want apistos that will make me play with my chemistry a little bit. i'm going to look around a little and then i'll ask some more questions....

 

[apistodave]

water

I thought it would be like that--perfect!!!!!!!!!!! The only fish I have that would be a challenge for you would be ivanacara adoketa or A norberti, A baenschi

 

[Hudson Ensz]

Man all of my suggestions would be useless, almost all of the fish i have kept are banned from export and hard to find there

 

[Bad-Daddio]

so, i've done some poking around the forum. i have some real preferences now.

by far, the two front-runners would be sp. Mamore/Erythrura and Bitaeniata, in that order. my "second level" would include trifasciata, sp. abacaxis, black-chin/schwarzkinn, and sp. masken.

the only thing that has changed is that i'm not going to be able to use my standard 30 gallon tank, i'm going to have to use a spare 20Long that i have. i'm going to guess that it wouldn't be worth trying 2 pairs of different apistos in this tank? i think most that i listed above are polygamous, and i could do a trio of any of them? would it be possible to do a 1M/3F of any of them?

 

[Mike Wise]

... i'm going to have to use a spare 20Long that i have. i'm going to guess that it wouldn't be worth trying 2 pairs of different apistos in this tank? i think most that i listed above are polygamous, and i could do a trio of any of them? would it be possible to do a 1M/3F of any of them?

It really depends on the species and how the tank is decorated. I rarely add more than a trio to a 20L.

 

[Apistomaster]

I am very familiar with your Granite falls, WA water and the entire water shed.
You may have an edge on even apistodave when it comes to water!
You can find springs, beaver ponds(Ice Caves Park) that should just about perfectly duplicate any of the black water species native waters to clear water spp. Especially the streams supporting native Coastal Cutthroat spawning beds or the bull trout spawning stream, South Fork of the Sauk River near Monte Cristo. I know it has native resident cutthroats and rainbows too. The resident Cutthroats as opposed to the Sea runs prefer Apistogramma water.
I fish for West Slope Cutthroats in Idaho's upper Lochsa River and even at the low flows of early fall I tested the water and with electronic meters and found a pH of 5.1 and TDS of 15.0 ppm. You have water like that too if you explore.
You have the entire genus to choose from and have reasonable expectations of raising them.

I think A. erythrura would be a great species for one of your choices.
A. trifasciata is accomodating more than most in every way but you just plain have it made no matter what you choose.

Your focus mainly needs to be perfecting your mikroworm culturing and brine shrimp hatching techniques for the fry and fish you surely will be raising soon.
Tons of good local drift wood available to you as well.

Watch out Dave, :biggrin:

 

[Bad-Daddio]

it's funny, i was going to test the seasonal creek that runs next to our property but it's already running too low. 28 straight days without rain will have that effect...

that got me to thinking - i'm sure i can beat the water that comes out of my tap. as you say, the number of springs, creeks, beaver ponds, etc. within even 5 miles of my house is staggering. i was going to go grab some of the water out of the beaver pond by the ice caves trail but 1) the entire trail is closed (under threat of fines) for another month or so while the reconstruct the bridge over the river and 2) it's a 4 mile hike to the pond on snow shoes from where they close the highway in the winter . now, i love to snow shoe but i'm not going to pack out water for water changes . that said, i'm going to drag the boys up the highway next week and grab a bunch of samples for them to test from more accessible sources.

interesting about coastal cutthroat preferring apisto type water. there is a LOT of cutthroat water near me. nothing wrong with getting in a day of fly-fishing and water collecting

it's going to be a bit longer before i'm ready to order any apistos because the 20L they're going into will be in our bedroom. for that reason, it has to look nice and be quiet so that "she" doesn't complain too much. i built a nice looking, simple stand for it and i'm working on custom plumbing for the filter intake / spray bar that should be near invisible when i'm done. the other reason for this is so that i can get a decent amount of flow through the tank without it looking like a river. i'm waiting for my external heater to arrive, and i'm doing up some DIY lights. i'll probably be ready to order by late next week some time. the trifasciatas are really starting to appeal to me though.

apistomaster - thanks for the good new and great info!

scott

 

[Bad-Daddio]

an update:

so, i finished my plumbing and lights. the tank is still sitting in the garage, testing for plumbing leaks. i planted the tank friday with a bunch of wisteria and dwarf sagittaria. at the moment, there are two big pieces of driftwood - one with fissidens, and one with taiwan moss. i'm leaving them in until they grow out enough for me to harvest. i plan to have a nice big fissidens rock feature in this tank and taiwan moss on a bunch of smaller rocks and driftwood. i also have some anubias coming that i will attach to some driftwood.

anyway, the exciting part is that i ordered apistos - 2 pairs of F0 macmasteri. i'll put both pairs in the tank and let them sort it out. hopefully i'll end up with a trio that works, or i'll just end up with two pairs in two separate tanks

they should ship today and be here in the next couple days. nice!