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Is play sand safe for apistos?

fyrefish

Member
Messages
54
Hey, I'm getting a new tank soon and have been looking around for products to scape it with. I was going to use natural sand, when I saw just how expensive 'aquarium sand' is. However, I have heard before that plain old play sand is perfectly fine for aquariums, you just have to rinse it well. There are nearby hardware stores selling it for just $8 AUD for 20kg, which is a lot cheaper than 'aquarium sand'. Is this safe for apistogramma, and will plants do ok in it? Only really planning on having val or crypts in the substrate, other plants will be epiphytes. I have attached a pic of the specific play sand they are selling.
 

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dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I've used play sand, you don't need a very thick layer. Vallisneria has never done very well for me in low nutrient, soft water but most Cryptocoryne spp. are fine.

You might be interested in the <"Duckweed Index"> as well, it is a simple technique where you use the leaf health and colour of a floating plant as an indication of when to add nutrients.

I add about <"10% Oak (Quercus spp.) leaf mold"> and non-calcareous clay to the sand when I plant the plants and I don't tend to syphon any leaf material from the break down of the structural leaf litter. Many Cryptocoryne spp. will root into this layer.

This is the plant growth in a play sand substrate tank (and structural leaf litter).

dicrossus_clup1_resize-1-jpg.41359


I have attached a pic of the specific play sand they are selling.
It just needs to say "100% silica sand".

cheers Darrel
 

Rapophie

New Member
Messages
11
I use play sand and it is completely fine, never even had any problems with gas pockets and the like. Before buying make sure it has no weird additives, if that would be the case it will always say that on the packaging (at least here in Germany it does, not sure about other places in the world). It is a lot finer and more compact than the usual aquarium sand, though that can help with holding hardscape in place. For the plants, I put a layer of gravel under the sand bed to loosen it up a little for the roots, not sure if that ever made any difference.
And yes, you do need to rinse it well, as it often contains significant amounts of clay. In my experience, it is easiest to put a layer in a bucket and then simply letting it overflow while running water into it (go outside and use a garden hose if possible; you don't want risk to clogging up your plumbing).
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
How thin a layer can you go with the crypts?
I only use about an inch (2.5 cm)deep, but they will root into the leaf litter layer above.
I have heard that some playsands contain additions to keep cats and dogs away.
I've ever bought the cheap ones that say "100% silica sand" and "additive free". It is about £5 for 15kg in the UK.

Pool filter sand isn't that easy to obtain here (in relatively small amounts) and it is a lot coarser.

cheers Darrel
 

fyrefish

Member
Messages
54
Thanks guys for all the help! I checked the company that sells the sand's website, and while it didn't say if it was silica or anything it said 'safe for hermit crabs and fish tanks. Also, would 20kg (the only size it comes in) be enough to cover the bottom of my tank? It's 130L, and the base is 90cmx38cm. Thanks.
 

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MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Also, would 20kg (the only size it comes in) be enough to cover the bottom of my tank? It's 130L, and the base is 90cmx38cm.
Yeah, should suffice. I just setup a new tank (112l, 80x35cm) and without the old sand a 5kg bag would have been enough for a 1.5cm layer. Together with the old sand from the previous tank I have a layer of 3cm. I estimate a total of 15kg.
 

fyrefish

Member
Messages
54
Thanks. Also, how would you reccomend washing the sand? I've heard you just put some in a bucket, fill the bucket with water, mix up the sand to get dust and debris out, then drain the water and add to the tank. Is this the best way?
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,958
Location
Germany
Thanks. Also, how would you reccomend washing the sand? I've heard you just put some in a bucket, fill the bucket with water, mix up the sand to get dust and debris out, then drain the water and add to the tank. Is this the best way?
Exactly, literally "rinse and repeat" and add "until the water comes out clear". Same technique as washing rice. You have no other choices honestly.
 

fyrefish

Member
Messages
54
I've been doing a bit more research, and a lot of people seem to be recommending pool sand over play sand. Apparently it's easier to wash, doesn't have as many gas pockets, and doesn't change parameters. (which I've heard play sand can do). Also it's whiter and easier to clean. Thoughts?
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
If possible, look at the bag and see how fine it is. A lot of pool filter sand is in the 0.4-0.5mm range, but sometimes it can be a lot coarser. Check out <this thread> on particle size.

“Play sand” isn’t standardized, so as others have stated, make sure there aren’t additives and that it’s all silica. You will need to wash it either way.

Any sand can trap bubbles, but if you wash it first, you’ll likely draw most of them out. I know people worry about anaerobic pockets of gas, but I highly doubt that oxygen won’t be present in your substrate.

Ultimately. most sand will work fine.
 

fyrefish

Member
Messages
54
I guess it's just about preference. Personally, I kinda want a bit coarser sand, so it's easier to vacuum, but I'll have to see the sand in person.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
what role does the clay serve?
It was an attempt to add some cation exchange capacity (CEC), but I don't think it actually serves any useful purpose, so I don't bother any-more. I now use a lot more in the way of leaf litter than I used to.

cheers Darrel
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
I've started reading Scott Hellman's content on Tannin Aquatics, and he includes clays in his sedimented substrates in order to mimic terrestrial environments. His argument is that that <the water composition in blackwater environments is primarily driven by geology and the soils>.

That said, I haven't found any detailed explanation or hypothesis on the net affect of the clay, what it's adding to the water, and what it contributes to closed ecosystems like aquariums, in particular the physiology of the fish. He also <doesn't think it contributes much to CEC>, though the added soils likely do.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I've started reading Scott Hellman's content on Tannin Aquatics, and he includes clays in his sedimented substrates in order to mimic terrestrial environments. His argument is that that <the water composition in blackwater environments is primarily driven by geology and the soils>.
If I could get suitable clay locally I probably would have carried on using some in the substrate.

It was partially seeing @Tom C's post on <"the particle size of the sand"> that made me think that play sand and structural leaf litter was probably about right.

I'd also guess that if you don't disturb any substrate it will begin to behave more like a natural substrate. Stephan Tanner talks about this in <"Aquarium Biofiltration">.

cheers Darrel
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,366
Hi all,

It was an attempt to add some cation exchange capacity (CEC), but I don't think it actually serves any useful purpose, so I don't bother any-more. I now use a lot more in the way of leaf litter than I used to.

cheers Darrel
Diane W. has a long thread on aquaticplantcentral.com where they talk about clay and cec; also there are several conversations on value of porous substrate (btw clay also helps because it is porous). My problem with some of their substrate discussion is their focus is plants and I sometime worry if the things we do to support plants is also optimal for fish health...

Having said that I have had problems with anaerobic pockets with certain substrate that I no longer use. Gas pockets in general are not bad unless they are sulfur in nature; in which they can be quite serious for plants (I've not seen negative impact to fishes).

I'm not sure how relevant this is to blackwater (if that is your objective) as I'm not sure how low ph influence these bacteria in the substrate. I do believe (perhaps falsely) that having a porous substrate help prevents bad things from happening. A porous substrate can be influence by both the grain size and the material that compose the grain...
--
I'm not a chemist and i'm not sure how certain substances interact with water; bacteria and electron exchange (i'm talking about using different types of rocks to create the substrate such as granite, shale, clay, ...); or maybe i'm just clueless and they are all the same.
 
Last edited:

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
566
Location
San Francisco
Having said that I have had problems with anaerobic pockets with certain substrate that I no longer use. Gas pockets in general are not bad unless they are sulfur in nature; in which they can be quite serious for plants (I've not seen negative impact to fishes).
I always keep Malaysian Trumpet Snails, which turn over the substrate, and I keep rooted plants. AFAIK, I’ve never had a problem with H2S in the substrate.

Because fine sand is more densely packed, detritus tends to accumulate on top, rather than getting buried in the sand. Maybe that’s why?
 

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