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Dicrossus 420 L

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Hello.

Some time ago I was asking for help with this tank. Initially it should be the home of a panduro pair but I prefer to keep only dicrossus.

IMG_E0898.JPG

IMG_0377.JPG

The tank is 1,4m x 0,5m x0,6m and I keep 5 juvenile Dicrossus filamentosus and 15 Paracheirodon axelrodi.

I also bought 10 Nannostomus eques but they all died for some reason I still dont know. Must have been some kind of disease. Probably I'll buy some of them again.

So, my question is: are this tank big enough to keep more dicrossus while they are juveniles? At the adult life, how many of them I could keep togheter?

I'm looking for some guava three and catappa leaves at the momento. And should add some more driftwoods too.

Do you have any suggestions?

And sorry about the picture, it was taken when I was doing the WC.

Thanks in advance.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
I also bought 10 Nannostomus eques but they all died for some reason I still dont know. Must have been some kind of disease. Probably I'll buy some of them again.
They often come with a type of internal parasites that are impossible to treat and have a tendency to stress each other to death. As you have basically no cover in the upper regions of the tank I can't rule out either. A combination is possible. That's how I lost all of my first batch except two. The second batch was free of parasites and offered far more cover in the upper third of the water column.

So, my question is: are this tank big enough to keep more dicrossus while they are juveniles? At the adult life, how many of them I could keep togheter?
Depends on the ratio of sexes. With the current structure I would stick to only one male even if the tank is 150cm long. If you add some more driftwood, providing better breaking of the lines of sight more males might be possible, too. The number should be bigger than 2 and not an even number. 3 should be feasable. But no guarantees on that. I grew out 5 juveniles in an 80cm last year, turned out all male, when they killed the smallest one I had to separate them and was left with one, although the tank was crammed with driftwood.
If some turn out female, those will not give you any trouble.
An ideal and stress free stocking would be 1m:3-5f.

I'm looking for some guava three and catappa leaves at the momento. And should add some more driftwoods too.
Driftwood: Yes! More! Maybe also some more twigs and branches.
Leaves: I use beech, oak, walnut and whatever I can collect in fall. I buy Catappa once the stock supply dwindles towards end of summer. Guava is also ok, but as with Catappa, they cost money.
I'd also add a good number of floaters or semi-emersed plants.

Otherwise... start building a leaf litter bed soon. 10 leaves a week should be fine in your tank size. You can keep adding until you have a decent layer on the ground. Then reduce the upkeep to a handful every 2 weeks.
 

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Hello Mac,

All my pencils came extremely thin. But I'd already paid for then, so I brought them home to see if I can save some of them... Unfortunately it not happen.

I assume that at least 2 of my dicrossus are females. The pectoral fins are getting orangish. One of them is showing some territorial behavior on the left side of the tank.
Guess I'll need to wait and see if there are any males.
If none of them turning into males, is it ok to add others juveniles with the adults already setled down?

So... I'm brazilian, leaves are not a problem at all. There are like 10 guava trees only in my street, they really come out the manholes. Catappas are a little more difficult to find near home but wont be a problem too.

Will look for some new driftwoods and leaves and add it in tank.

Thanks a lot.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
All my pencils came extremely thin. But I'd already paid for then, so I brought them home to see if I can save some of them... Unfortunately it not happen.
Then it was parasites. Hope they didn't spread.

I assume that at least 2 of my dicrossus are females. The pectoral fins are getting orangish.
Don't draw conclusions before the 4-5cm mark. And then probably only in regards to males. The pectorals stay clear in females before the first spawn, males can have a reddish or blueish sheen in the fins earlier. The tint is not helping there, I can tell you. :) Dicrossus are notorious for being sexable only very late.

If none of them turning into males, is it ok to add others juveniles with the adults already setled down?
I doubt you will have no males. It's more likely you end up with all males. Reportedly females may be aggressive towards juveniles. So I'd rather add 3-4 more now.

So... I'm brazilian, leaves are not a problem at all. There are like 10 guava trees only in my street, they really come out the manholes. Catappas are a little more difficult to find near home but wont be a problem too.
Ah, so they are what oak and beech are for me here in Europe (except you get them year round). I'd still try to get leaf litter from outside the city. Residue from traffic pollution is the last thing you want to add to a tank. It's hard to impossible to boil or wash off leaves.

You're welcome and I hope you have a lot of fun with these fascinating fish. I fell for Dicrossus a few years ago but it took me almost 1.5 years until I got my hands on a single adult male by chance. When I lost that one due to my own carelessness (upgraded the tank, forgot checking ONE single parameter before moving the fish to the new tank) I was fortunate to get the group of juveniles.
I'm all for dwarf cichlids in general, but I'll always prefer a Dicrossus species to any Apistogramma. There, people, I said it. :D
 

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Ah, so they are what oak and beech are for me here in Europe (except you get them year round). I'd still try to get leaf litter from outside the city. Residue from traffic pollution is the last thing you want to add to a tank. It's hard to impossible to boil or wash off leaves.
I agree. Only use it as example.

There is a big natural reserve in my town called "Serra do Japi", one of the biggest fragments of Mata Atlântica that remains free of the human activities. I collected a lot of driftwoods there. It's a nice place to find the leaves too.
japi.jpg


Well, I'll keep waiting a couple months for these little guys get bigger so I can tell if they're males or females.

Tomorrow I should go to my LFS see if they have some more dicrossus. My original idea was to keep around 8 while they are juvs, then keep 2 males and 6 females.

Again, thanks!
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
I agree. Only use it as example.

There is a big natural reserve in my town called "Serra do Japi", one of the biggest fragments of Mata Atlântica that remains free of the human activities. I collected a lot of driftwoods there. It's a nice place to find the leaves too.
That looks like a wonderful place! :)

Well, I'll keep waiting a couple months for these little guys get bigger so I can tell if they're males or females.
It took mine about 6 months until they were sexable beyond a doubt, after 9 months in my tank the rivalries became uncontrollable. I guess they were between 2 and 3 months when I got them, so... yeah the one year mark is when males have to be separated I guess. Also maybe an interesting info for you: The whole group kept each other well in check until the number evened out to 4. I tried 2 for 24h then I decided to give away one of the 2 as well, because they had no others left to focus their aggression on.

My original idea was to keep around 8 while they are juvs, then keep 2 males and 6 females.
I was hoping for a 2:3 ratio. I'm eyeballing the sexed females my LFS has in one of their displays which still houses one of the males I gave them, but they told me they only sell after the tank has run with the current stock for at least 6 months (two months to go). In the display (120x50x60, heavily planted) 2 males also didn't work out for them, they separated them after 2 weeks, with one of them already pretty roughed up.
 

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Also maybe an interesting info for you: The whole group kept each other well in check until the number evened out to 4. I tried 2 for 24h then I decided to give away one of the 2 as well, because they had no others left to focus their aggression on.
Good to know!

I'll buy more 2 or 3 juvs and keep my eyes at them. In any case of excessive agression I can separate to another tank.

I was hoping for a 2:3 ratio. I'm eyeballing the sexed females my LFS has in one of their displays which still houses one of the males I gave them, but they told me they only sell after the tank has run with the current stock for at least 6 months (two months to go). In the display (120x50x60, heavily planted) 2 males also didn't work out for them, they separated them after 2 weeks, with one of them already pretty roughed up.

Looks like it will be "one male tank" for me then.
 

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
With Cardinal Tetras in the tank I doubt you will be able to raise many (if any) fry in such an open tank. You need to decide which is more important, a community or breeding. It's almost impossible to have both.
Yes, I doubt the fry can make it.

As i said, the tank will be more "decorated". I'm still looking for driftwood and branches, even some rocks to make caves.

Also, there are any plants that you recommend? At the moment I have Nymphaea lotus and Anubias nana. My preference is keep only amazonian plants if possible.

Thanks!
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
As i said, the tank will be more "decorated". I'm still looking for driftwood and branches, even some rocks to make caves.
Leave the caves. Dicrossus stay away from caves as "caves mean danger". Cover and shelters - no problem. Actual caves: No interest. The male I have at the moment prefers to stay in the open area to the left of my tank and has build himself a dugout under some leaves right by the roots of the Nymphaea.

photo_2023-01-19_19-32-09.jpg photo_2023-01-19_19-32-09 (2).jpg

For plants I can only recommend plants that "cheat" for Light and CO2: Nymphaea lotus, Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Salvinia, Limnobium, Pistia... Any floaters or semi-emersed plants are preferrable.
photo_2023-01-19_19-32-11.jpg photo_2023-01-19_19-36-17.jpg
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
With Cardinal Tetras in the tank I doubt you will be able to raise many (if any) fry in such an open tank. You need to decide which is more important, a community or breeding. It's almost impossible to have both.
Mike, I think with Dicrossus generally a group is preferrable, even when not intending to breed, as the fish really seem to do well in groups as in contrast to many Apistogramma at least D. filamentosus males don't chase females unwilling to breed relentlessly. So a relatively peaceful group in a display tank is feasable.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,791
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I also bought 10 Nannostomus eques but they all died for some reason I still dont know. Must have been some kind of disease.
As you have basically no cover in the upper regions of the tank I can't rule out either.
I've found that all the <"Pencilfish and allies"> (Lebiasinidae) are <"much more territorial"> than is usually reported. I keep <"really weedy tanks">, so I would imagine that things are even worse in open conditions.
There are like 10 guava trees only in my street,
Guava (Psidium spp) are fine. I've got a plant of <"Psidium cattleyanum"> in the glasshouse, but I don't get many leaves from it.
Also, there are any plants that you recommend? At the moment I have Nymphaea lotus and Anubias nana. My preference is keep only amazonian plants if possible.
For plants I can only recommend plants that "cheat" for Light and CO2: Nymphaea lotus, Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Salvinia, Limnobium, Pistia... Any floaters or semi-emersed plants are preferrable.
Same for me. The floaters <"Phyllanthus fluitans, Pistia statiotes, Limnobium laevigatum and Salvinia "auriculata"> group are all Brazilian natives. @Tom C has seen a <"lot of Pistia"> in the Peruvian Amazon basin. I like a Ceratopteris sp. as well. At least <"one species is native"> to Brazil. <"http://amazon.pisces-conservation.com/indexc6b1.html">.

cheers Darrel
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
I've found that all the <"Pencilfish and allies"> (Lebiasinidae) are <"much more territorial"> than is usually reported. I keep <"really weedy tanks">, so I would imagine that things are even worse in open conditions.
Absolutely. Tetras bicker, pencils kill. No wonder, considering how rocket-like they look... One of my N. eques males guarding his territory. The fish is still alive and still one of the prime specimens, although already closing in on 3 years of age. Old for a pencil. The picture's from August 2021.

20210803_194402.jpg
 

Mazan

Active Member
Messages
283
I've found that all the <"Pencilfish and allies"> (Lebiasinidae) are <"much more territorial"> than is usually reported. I keep <"really weedy tanks">, so I would imagine that things are even worse in open conditions.
Funny that, I have beckford's pencilfish that are getting on for 3 years old and they have always been pretty peaceful. I also have some N. mortenthaleri which are reported to be very aggressive, but mine do not seem that bad, yes they spar sometimes, but do not seem to do any damage, and mine are all males I think. Perhaps if there were females in the tank it might be different. On the other hand the Copellas - well I started with 6, they multiplied to over 20, I moved them to a bigger tank. For quite a long time there were no issues as most of them were still small, but recently they had all matured and literally started killing each other. I had to give most of them away and am back to 6 again now.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
Funny that, I have beckford's pencilfish that are getting on for 3 years old and they have always been pretty peaceful. I also have some N. mortenthaleri which are reported to be very aggressive, but mine do not seem that bad, yes they spar sometimes, but do not seem to do any damage, and mine are all males I think. Perhaps if there were females in the tank it might be different.
They usually don't damage one another but I've seen them harrass each other to the point one drops dead. Knowing your tanks: Just as me you have a lot of cover in the tanks, making it easy for the fish to disperse. Also you have sufficiently big group sizes so aggression is spread. Plus no females = perfectly peaceful situation.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,464
They usually don't damage one another but I've seen them harrass each other to the point one drops dead. Knowing your tanks: Just as me you have a lot of cover in the tanks, making it easy for the fish to disperse. Also you have sufficiently big group sizes so aggression is spread. Plus no females = perfectly peaceful situation.
Dang females always causing problems.
 

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Hi.

This weekend I collected some mulberry leaves and brought two Echinodorus bleheri. I know it's not an ideal plant for cover the surface of the aquarium but didn't find any good plant for that. I'll try again this week in another LFS.
IMG_E0960.JPG

IMG_E0944.JPG


Guava trees are not losing leaves yet.

Also add 3 Macrobrachium jelskii.

IMG_E0967.JPG
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,180
Location
Germany
Will see how the plants will do.

Important about leaf litter: Only take brown leaves. Green leaves still contain a lot of nutrients, especially sugars. They contain barely any humic substances, rot away much quicker than brown leaves and may cause bacteria blooms. Proceed with caution!
I personally would remove them.
 

Gaisller

Member
Messages
71
Location
São Paulo, Brazil
Will see how the plants will do.

Important about leaf litter: Only take brown leaves. Green leaves still contain a lot of nutrients, especially sugars. They contain barely any humic substances, rot away much quicker than brown leaves and may cause bacteria blooms. Proceed with caution!
I personally would remove them.

I picked up the fallen leaves, so I assumed that even the green ones are good to put in... but I'll remove them.

Thank you.
 

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