Crowding Apistos

[jowens]

http://www.aquabotanic.com/keeping.html

Acclaimed Apisto expert David Soares has "700 A. cacatuodies in a 150 gallon tank" and has had as many as "135 A. juruensis living in a 20 gallon aquarium." What are the views out there on crowding Apistos into small tanks?

Do we feel that Soares techniques can be applied to different species of Apistos or must it all be the same species? Is this kind of crowding simply inadvisable for any non-experts?

 

[farm41]

how often do you want to change water? that would be the question

 

[jowens]

Hmmm, let me get more specific

I guess the real question for me would be about aggression...mixing pairs of Apistos. I would never want to jam in the kind of numbers that Soares does, but I'm curious about people'e experience putting 5-10 pairs of Apistos in smaller (say, around 50 gallons) tanks.

Assuming you were going to do the requisite upkeep (water changes, etc.), what happens when you put a bunch of Apisto pairs in the tank together? Do the stronger fish terrorize all the other fish? Or, like Africans, does the larger number of fish shrink territories and actually reduce fighting (i.e. the stronger fish can't pick any single fish to pick on with so many "targets" around them)? Is mixing species where you get in trouble, or does that no matter that much?

I'm not a big breeder - I basically keep my Apistos for show - so I often wonder about various combinations and how they'd work. But I also don't like losing fish...so before trying stuff, I like to hear what everyone else has to say.

 

[Cichlids1]

Myself and Oliver Lucanus had this discussion at the ACA in New Jersey. He mentioned keeping species tanks with several individuals as opposed to single pairs or trios. Seemed to have the same effect as crowding the aggression out of Rift Lake Cichlids. I tried it with the A. gephrya. I had 10 gephyra in a 15g tank. I was suprised to see it actually work. They developed a hierarchy, alpha male and alpha female, but they all intermixed and different pairs were spawning. Sometimes it was the alpha with alpha, other times it wasn't.

I also tried it with A. borelli. 2 males and 6 females in a 10g tank. The results:

this is the only species I've actually witnessed having a true group spawn. It was 3 females and 2 males all spawning at the same time, in the same cave. 2 females ended up fighting over who was going to guard the eggs, so I pulled them.

Neither of these species are known for being overly aggressive. I might try it with a group of A. atahualpa I am growing out now. If anyone has a reputation for aggression, it is these guys.

 

[jowens]

Very interesting, Chichlids1. I'd be interested in other people's similar experiences - as well as any from those who have tried mixing multiple Apisto species' in relatively small quarters.

 

[Neil]

I sometimes house a bunch in very small quarters, because I have alot of small tanks and sometimes I get a big order of wild fish. The effect is the same as Rift Valley Cichlids. There are so many fish that no-one is in too much danger from aggressive fish. But that is just holding, not normal husbandry or breeding. And they are much more difficult to maintain. But they will breed in that situation. It is just unlikely that you will ever see any fry out of it. When I have kept numerous fish for breeding, the result is always the same. There is way more problems than I care to deal with! Either fry are eaten by the parents that can keep up defending them for long or by the others in the tank or multiple breedings (which sounds cool, but can be a pain) or needing to pull eggs, which is always a pain.It is interesting to experiment with different tank densities, to see behavioral issues that just a pair won't offer. But when it comes down to breeding, the 1 pair is the critical factor and I don't usually like to mess around with things that complicate them spawning and me getting the maximum amount of fry from that spawn.
Years ago, when David had those 700 cacatuoides in that large tank, he was filling it with fry from breeding tanks and he was doing some serious water changes. I expect that those fish were not pleased to be in that situation.
Neil

 

[apistodave]

Hey you guys! and let me clear something up about the crowding. It is true that I had that many Juruensis in the 30 but i don't recommend it. That was an unusual situation that hasn't happened since.The situation was that I got lazy and didn't take any out-I just let them go on and on and on. Now that big male tolerated all those fish in his territory and that's what is unusual. When Uwe and I got his fish out of there we counted everything-- if they could swim, we counted them! Still that many fish in that size tank is amazing. Oh yeah! 50% changes every 3 days. (He was a brute, there is a pic of him on page 511& 513 of the Atlas- I esp. like 513 upper I have a 30 x 20 framed one in my living room

 

[aspen]

hi david. you have a framed pic of a fav fish on your wall? are you married? if so, maybe you could lend some advice to us more 'whipped' members of this forum, how you actually get a say in the decorations in your house??

if my opinion counts, (i'm not anything of an 'apisto expert') i think i see the best display of their colours and interesting bahaviour from my fish when i have a single pair in a 20 say, with some tetras or other dithers. i'm not sure the african approach is the greatest of methods with amazon dwarfs. at least, an overstocked apisto tank didn't work too well for me in those areas. i have in my 20 right now, a pair of rams, a female borelli, and some tetras and the cichlids are displaying quite nicely, with a minimum of agression and are nice and active, but not stressed.

rick

 

[Dirk]

Jowens,

I keep my rising generation, (3-6 month old), in 200l tank, together with some very old Apisto. In this 200l tank there are appr. 100 apisto different types, 4 very old viejita and 4 old caca.

There is no aggression and I change the water 40% once a week. No problems.

The same kind of care I´ve seen by some famous breeder here in Germany. So seems to me no problem.

Ciao
Dirk

 

[jowens]

Yeah, I wouldn't be interested in any severe crowding. But since I'm not too big into breeding, I may try housing a few more pairs in my 46-gallon that would be ordinarily advisable. Maybe 5-7 pairs, rather than the 2-3 that would be the norm.

Currently there's a pair of Cacs, a pair of Borrelli, a pair of Aggies, and a pair of Rams in there...and the Rams are the most aggressive fish in the tank! So I'm thinking of adding two more pairs, just to see what will happen. But since the tank is so well planted, there really don't seem to be too many problems. New fish are routinely harassed, but once they've been in there for a few weeks, it generally subsides.

 

[Neil]

apistodave,

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

Dave,
Nice to have you aboard! How was the ACA this year?

jowens,
So far, you have a relatively safe selection of pairs in your tank. Adding a few more might be fine. At the very least, it will be an interesting experiment and probably offer you a good veiw of some behaviors. There is a substantial difference, however, between keeping a "colony" (which is basically what Dave has done in the past) and keeping breeding pairs from numerous species. The heirarchy of dominance sometimes doesn't come without a cost to some species or another. That may just mean that someone gets a territory in the upper corner of the tank or behind a filter.

Cichlids1,
That is a great deal that you have going with those borellii. I have never seen that before with apistos! And might never again. Nice photos.

Neil

 

[jowens]

Well, I've gone ahead and started the experiment

I've started the experiment. I just received a large shipment of fish from Neil (in perfect condition of course, with a Panduro pair looking particularly incredible) and I'm starting to rotate new pairs into my 46-gallon, heavily planted community tank. In all, I want to try putting about 6-8 pairs in there, depending on how things go.

The bottom of the tank now houses 6 small clay pots and 2 half coconut shell for hiding spots, along with a very large submerged log that serves the centerpiece to the tank. Currently, the fish in the tank include:

- One pair, Agassizzi (old male, new female)
- One pair, Cacatoides (old female, new male)
- One pair, Panduro (new pair)
- One pair, Bolivian Rams (old pair)
- large school cardinal tetras
- one bristelnose catfish
- five ottos
- two SAE's
- one pair Golden Wonder killies (a really great fish to keep with Apistos, IMO)

I'm going to add another pair of Aggies before too long. Truth be told, my old male Aggy has seen better days. He's about two years old and looking pretty hagard - though he had enough spunk to chase the newcomers for a while the other night. I know two years is about the limit for Apistos, so he's lived a good life...but I doubt he'll last much longer.

I may also add another pair of Cac's. We'll just see how it works. I don't want the fish to be miserable - but I wouldn't mind if the tank looks a bit like an African tank, with lots of squabbles over territory without any deaths. There should be enough spots for all fish to establish some territory, but we shall see. I do have backup tanks if certain fish can't seem to cope, so we can avoid any cruel situations.

I'll keep everyone posted on how it works.

 

[Neil]

jowens,
That's alot of fish for a 46g., but it sounds like an interesting experiment. Just keep an eye out for a pair or individual getting picked on too much. A heavily structured tank can go a long way to reduce aggression from somewhat crowded conditions. You will probably always get something interesting to look at when you are in front of the tank 8O . Keep us posted.
Neil

 

[jowens]

Will do, Neil. I want it to be fiesty - not violent. So if any single fish or pair is getting more then their fair share of abuse, they come out.