Can I add another apistogramma species to my 40gallong breeder with A. Borellii

[FishMonkey]

Let me start by saying I have 1m/3f Borellii & 2 coral red pencil fish (was 6 but 2 pair up and chased the rest to death wtf.. these were supposed to be peaceful dithers).

Anyway I hear "You could easily fit 3 pairs of apistos in a tank that size" a lot (and I mean a lot), Reddit, LFS's, fellow fish keepers, ect so I thought I'd ask here before I make a huge mistake


Can I add another species of apistogramma to my 40g breeder tank?

The apistos available that I'm interested in are;
-Agassizii (reds and blues mixed together, guessing this is bad?)
-Cacatuoides (young but look more orange flash than red which they're labeled as)
-Viejita (I like these the most but how do you sex them so young? Also I thought these get macmasteri size? Online I can't find much info apart from 5cm max :S in sure this is wrong...)

If this is a really bad idea are there any more interesting fish I could add with the Borellii, preferably more cichlids because tetras, raspboras, pencil fish, ect are a bit boring imo.

 

[Aquaticloch]

You could but its much better to not mix species in that tank, let alone males of the same species. Borellii are pretty small so you could get away with maybe another male and female. The borellii would likely be bossed around by larger more aggressive species such as the macmasteri and agassizii.

I wouldn't recommend other species unless the tank is very well planted and has many spots for other fish to hide, do you have photos?

In short its probably best to keep just the group in that tank, but you could get away maybe 2 males of the borellii if the tank is well structured and has lots of caves and sightblocks.

 

[FishMonkey]

I don't have any photos to hand since I done a mini rescape and made space 2 more plants.

All plants are "background" plants even if they're at the front of the tank, there's also a lot of bogwood, rocks, coconut shells, and old film canisters, I try to keep 2-3 spawning sites per apisto so I've definitely set up my tank with apistogrammas needs in mind

How risky/silly would it be to try and a pair of A. Viejita? Or another A. Borellii pair?

 

[Mike Wise]

My recommendation is that you consider a dwarf acara like Laetacara dorsigera. This species come froms the same general region as A. borellii, so both species have similar water needs. They as relatively small and peaceful, like borellii, and inhabit more open spaces, so tend not to 'interact' with apistos for habitat. That being said, you are planning to put 2 breeding groups of (territorial) cichlids together. In a properly laid out tank of your size it is possible but don't expect continuous harmony.

 

[FishMonkey]

General consensus is a no to more apistos then even if the same of different species.

Thank you so much for that recommendation as this is exactly the sort of fish I'm looking for, I seen blue acara in the LFS but that was obviously a nope, I had no idea there are dwarf varieties, now I'm going to have to do my research and find a list of comparable dwarf acaras.

Totally new to dwarf cichlids the last year, I was a gourami guy until I got given a pair of blue rams unwillingly, my understanding was cichlids were notoriously difficult to keep, to my surprise they bred like rabbits and were full of character, it just sucked you could only keep pairs then I discovered apistos.

 

[anewbie]

Another fish you might consider is Laetacara curviceps or Nannacara anomala. The nannacara is not as colourful but is really quite an interesting fish. The Laetacara curviceps is a very colourful fish - i've not owned but it is on my list next time i have free tank space. I suspect it is not so dissimilar to the fish @MacZ recommended - on paper it seems similar.

 

[MacZ]

I suspect it is not so dissimilar to the fish @MacZ recommended - on paper it seems similar.

I did not post in this thread.

Well, now I have.

 

[anewbie]

I did not post in this thread.

Well, now I have.

Sorry - it was @Mike Wise sorry again for the mistake.

 

[FishMonkey]

Laetacara dorsigera & curviceps are the fish I'm looking at currently, hopefully dorsigera as it looks a bit smaller/more colorful.

...but don't expect continuous harmony.

This is pretty much expected but providing the tank is set up right would the odd bickering over territory cause the apistos to be stressed out and unhappy or would it just natural behaviour to them and won't bother them too much?

 

[anewbie]

For my nannanacara (which i have with cockatoo in a 40B) I have observed some violence between the females but nothing drastic. They at times do a bit of the tail wagging thing - once the cockatoo actually went a bit further and tried to attack a female nannacara - the nannacara pinned her by the fins then released her and that was the end of the conflict. Generally the nannacara do not hang out in front but do show up at feedings - the female cockatoo spend most of their time in front. I've not observed too much aggression with the males - once the male cockatoo raised his fins but that was it. Of course there might be more going on than i have observed but i've not noticed any fin damage or body scars.

 

[FishMonkey]

It definitely sounds doable. Do you have a m/f pair of nannanacaras/apistos or a harem of one and pair of the other?

I message all the fish shops within an hour drive, they all had nannanacara then one messaged me at closing time stating they had Laetacara dorsigera but only sent a picture of one. How do you sex these? I can't find much info online

 

[anewbie]

I have m/f/f of both. The nannacara it is not clear to me if they are harem - the male flirts with both females which makes me think they are harem but other keepers have said it doesn't work to keep 2 females. I've had the second female now for about 7 months and she seems to be doing fine and the male as i said flirts with her but i've not seen them breed.

 

[FishMonkey]

That set up sounds really nice, do you have any videos?

The one thing that worries me is the size difference of Nannacara/Laetacara compared to a borellii as they are at least twice the size of borellii's, if one did turn I can imagine I would have to pull very quickly.

 

[anewbie]

I've not seen much aggression between the male cockatoo and nannacara - which is different than with the kribs - the male nanna would attack the kribs on site - eventually both m/f krib gained up on him and he backed off (i removed the kribs for a number of reason). However the female nannacara and cockatoo have gotten into it a few times - it usually starts with tail wagging - if neither backs down and there is a 'fight' the nanncara will quickly pin the cockatoo by the fin and then release her and the fight is over. While i'm not please there has been aggression i am pleased that no serious harm was done (beyond stress). The two times i saw this is the cockatoo decided to breed at the front of the tank where i feed them and the nanna came up front for food. Generally speaking they ignore each other and i've not seen any issues but of course i have no clue what happens at the dead of night. Still i've not noticed any rip fins or scars on the body so i think it can't be too harsh.
-
With any dwarf cichlid you purchase you should ensure they are harem breeder before buying more than one female else the loan female might have a sad ending.

 

[Mike Wise]

Nannacara generally are much more aggressive than the average apisto. I would never put a breeding pair in a tank with A. borellii. Besides that, both genera tend to occupy the same micro-habitat.

 

[FishMonkey]

generally are much more aggressive than the average apisto. I would never put a breeding pair in a tank with A. borellii. Besides that, both genera tend to occupy the same micro-habitat.

Are Laetacara dorsigera generally more peaceful than Nannacara then?

I am really one edge if I should risk it or alternatively keep looking for another compatible non dwarf cichlid species.

 

[anewbie]

Nannacara generally are much more aggressive than the average apisto. I would never put a breeding pair in a tank with A. borellii. Besides that, both genera tend to occupy the same micro-habitat.

Mike you have a lot more experience than myself so i'm curious here as I've not had horrible problems with the nannacara and cockatoo in the 40B. They have been together for about 11 months now - do i just have particularly gentle fishes or should i treat it as a bad situation that one day will explode ?

 

[FishMonkey]

I have little apistogramma experience but if it's working for now I would keep very close eyes on them.

I once had a betta that would glass surf/blow his tail out in his own 20g but he was happy in a 40g with 8 male honey gourami, corries, and dwarf raspboras, it was pretty sureal tbh he just love watching other fish, shrimp and snails. I wouldn't advise trying to replicated it again, it was try him there or put him in a tank full of tetras.

 

[Mike Wise]

anewbie, A. cacatuoides and A. borellii are 2 rather different species, behaviorally. A. cacatuoides is a larger and more territorial species than A. borellii. In a larger tank that is properly laid out with visual territories most Nannacara species and larger apisto species should be able to co-exist most of the time. Broodcaring female Nannacaras can be vicious when protecting fry. The only Nannacara species that I would consider mixing with A. borellii is N. taeniata.

 

[Jon Webb]

Let me start by saying I have 1m/3f Borellii & 2 coral red pencil fish (was 6 but 2 pair up and chased the rest to death wtf.. these were supposed to be peaceful dithers).

Anyway I hear "You could easily fit 3 pairs of apistos in a tank that size" a lot (and I mean a lot), Reddit, LFS's, fellow fish keepers, ect so I thought I'd ask here before I make a huge mistake


Can I add another species of apistogramma to my 40g breeder tank?

The apistos available that I'm interested in are;
-Agassizii (reds and blues mixed together, guessing this is bad?)
-Cacatuoides (young but look more orange flash than red which they're labeled as)
-Viejita (I like these the most but how do you sex them so young? Also I thought these get macmasteri size? Online I can't find much info apart from 5cm max :S in sure this is wrong...)

If this is a really bad idea are there any more interesting fish I could add with the Borellii, preferably more cichlids because tetras, raspboras, pencil fish, ect are a bit boring imo.

I got a half grown natural pair of Viejitas from Aquatic Arts. Healthy, until I exposed them to fish from mass suppliers, and lost the male, apparently to gill flukes. The whole tank now treated, and the female recovering well. The female was the more aggressive, keeping the discus away. Ran off the juvenile cacatoides, but didn’t harass them in a heavily planted tank. I’ll get more when I can.