Assistance in determining males from females please

[Dkelly97]

Hi all, I know this is a popular topic, however I am after some assistance in determining traits that differentiate me tween male and female Apistogramma Cacatuoides orange flash. I think I have narrowed it down to a few things but please tell me if I am wrong on anything or I am missing anything. So the traits I believe indicate female are a dark black spot on the chin, dark black colouration on the first few spines of the pelvic and dorsal fins, a more rounded tail fin without the points at top and bottom as pictured. I know a lot of people will add to this list the yellowing of the whole body but I have had sub males show yellow colouration at times with less intense/more of a blue black colour of the dorsal and pelvic fins. I would appreciate as much help as I can get as this is my first batch of fry that I am close to thinking needs moving on.

 

[MacZ]

There is a small problem in your way called overbreeding.

It has lead to females of domestic A. cacatuoides showing male attributes. This includes full colouration in the non-paired fins, lyretails and long fin rays in the front part of the dorsal fin.

The traits you've identified can be applied to fish more close to the wild form. Here my comments on that:

So the traits I believe indicate female are a dark black spot on the chin

Not at all, probably only in your strain. You see them without that regularly.

dark black colouration on the first few spines of the pelvic and dorsal fins

You can see that also in males sometimes.

a more rounded tail fin without the points at top and bottom as pictured.

Lucky if you have that.

Additional traits of females: An overall more short and rounded built. Of course the fact they don't grow as bis as the males and a smaller mouth and "face". Males get big lips and mouths pretty early on.

Now you will likely want to know why this is a problem: Relentless multiplication of fish with a circular family tree.

First breeders purposefully linebred the fish for more colourful and big fins. Linebreeding includes inbreeding, which leads to malformations, health problems, etc. but it also strengthens certain traits if you only pair up fish with the same traits. Small breeders with responsible population control and genepool management remove malformed fish from the lines. They might overlook a fish or two, and there's always a chance a fish carries a faulty gene, giving it to the next generation.

A second group are fish farms. They do mass production. They usually take cheap mediocre fish from the actual breeders and simply multiply them. Just copy paste. And in that copy paste process more genetic problems crop up. In contrast to the original breeders they don't sort out fish with deformities or unusual traits. To them colour is first priority, so when females show male colouration and fin traits they don't care.

Then a third group of... I don't want to call them breeders, just simple hobbyists have lots of success multiplying these fish and giving them back to retailers to sell or sold them themselves. These people haven't looked into mutations and malformations and thus rarely sort out fish that should be taken out of the genepool and pumped them full of meds to survive when nature would have sorted them out.

Result is a very weak genepool and the sex traits not applying anymore.

So while the traits you listed above are guidelines, they do not apply 100% every time. My recommandation is not trying to sex them before they reach 4-5cm TL.

 

[Dkelly97]

There is a small problem in your way called overbreeding.

It has lead to females of domestic A. cacatuoides showing male attributes. This includes full colouration in the non-paired fins, lyretails and long fin rays in the front part of the dorsal fin.

The traits you've identified can be applied to fish more close to the wild form. Here my comments on that:

Not at all, probably only in your strain. You see them without that regularly.


You can see that also in males sometimes.


Lucky if you have that.

Additional traits of females: An overall more short and rounded built. Of course the fact they don't grow as bis as the males and a smaller mouth and "face". Males get big lips and mouths pretty early on.

Now you will likely want to know why this is a problem: Relentless multiplication of fish with a circular family tree.

First breeders purposefully linebred the fish for more colourful and big fins. Linebreeding includes inbreeding, which leads to malformations, health problems, etc. but it also strengthens certain traits if you only pair up fish with the same traits. Small breeders with responsible population control and genepool management remove malformed fish from the lines. They might overlook a fish or two, and there's always a chance a fish carries a faulty gene, giving it to the next generation.

A second group are fish farms. They do mass production. They usually take cheap mediocre fish from the actual breeders and simply multiply them. Just copy paste. And in that copy paste process more genetic problems crop up. In contrast to the original breeders they don't sort out fish with deformities or unusual traits. To them colour is first priority, so when females show male colouration and fin traits they don't care.

Then a third group of... I don't want to call them breeders, just simple hobbyists have lots of success multiplying these fish and giving them back to retailers to sell or sold them themselves. These people haven't looked into mutations and malformations and thus rarely sort out fish that should be taken out of the genepool and pumped them full of meds to survive when nature would have sorted them out.

Result is a very weak genepool and the sex traits not applying anymore.

So while the traits you listed above are guidelines, they do not apply 100% every time. My recommandation is not trying to sex them before they reach 4-5cm TL.

Thankyou for your very in depth reply, how can stop any breeding within groups of the same fry then? As I have actually found a clutch of eggs in this batch’s grow out tank since posting this thread, I appreciate any more advice you can give. I definitely don’t want to be in the third group but even if I do currently fall in this group regularly cull any fish in my possession that show physical abnormalities

 

[MacZ]

My pleasure. Always happy to help.

how can stop any breeding within groups of the same fry then?

Destroy the clutch and remove the fish you can then identify as a female to a separate tank. That's actually the only thing you can do, as even if there are no caves in the tank the fish will find spots to spawn at anyway. Nature always finds a way.

I appreciate any more advice you can give.

Ask away.

I definitely don’t want to be in the third group but even if I do currently fall in this group regularly cull any fish in my possession that show physical abnormalities

You cull regularly, so you are not the irresponsible kind. You probably already found the micro-ventral fin problem, I guess. Do you do the classic clove oil or do you have some predator fish?
Anyhow, I find it completely legitimate to do 1-2 batches of an easy fish like domestic A. cacatuoides or wild type A. borellii to get the basics right, but then stop and prevent them from further breeding simply by separating them. And then moving on to species that are really worth breeding, be it because they have just been introduced to the trade or because the wild population is endangered.

 

[Dkelly97]

Destroy the clutch and remove the fish you can then identify as a female to a separate tank. That's actually the only thing you can do, as even if there are no caves in the tank the fish will find spots to spawn at anyway. Nature always finds a way.

Thankyou, I have another mature male that is not the father of this batch so I may end up putting her and possibly one more female in with him. However if I was to introduce the grandchildren to breed with the parents of this batch would you consider that line breeding or inbreeding, or would you suggest just trying as hard as possible to not introduce fish from the same line at all for breeding purposes? Reasonably new to apistogrammas and even more so to the idea of breeding but wanting to do the right thing. If you have any websites or pointers on where to look for such info too that’d be much appreciated.

You probably already found the micro-ventral fin problem, I guess. Do you do the classic clove oil or do you have some predator fish?
Anyhow, I find it completely legitimate to do 1-2 batches of an easy fish like domestic A. cacatuoides or wild type A. borellii to get the basics right, but then stop and prevent them from further breeding simply by separating them. And then moving on to species that are really worth breeding, be it because they have just been introduced to the trade or because the wild population is endangered.

I haven’t heard of it yet no, but I will look it up. I just use the the classic clove oil as apistogramma's are the largest mouth fish I keep with the exception of some pleco’s


Thanks again for your input. I will destroy this clutch and endeavour to sort out the males from females and introduce them to mates of different lines for now.

 

[Dkelly97]

I find it completely legitimate to do 1-2 batches of an easy fish like domestic A. cacatuoides or wild type A. borellii to get the basics right, but then stop and prevent them from further breeding simply by separating them. And then moving on to species that are really worth breeding, be it because they have just been introduced to the trade or because the wild population is endangered.

Thankyou for this input, I am based in Australia so we really only have about a dozen different types of Apistogramma in the country, however on my side of the country that number is even more limited. So my goal is to eventually start introducing some of the lesser known or harder to get species in the Australian hobby to aquarists over this side of the country. I think my first hurdle will be making apistogramma's a fish that aquarists on my side of the country desire. However I do find that unless I buy from renowned breeders on the other side of the country, the majority of fish I can buy locally are from the second group you named in a previous reply. Which as I have already found results in it being very hard to find fish of high quality.

 

[MacZ]

Thankyou, I have another mature male that is not the father of this batch so I may end up putting her and possibly one more female in with him. However if I was to introduce the grandchildren to breed with the parents of this batch would you consider that line breeding or inbreeding, or would you suggest just trying as hard as possible to not introduce fish from the same line at all for breeding purposes? Reasonably new to apistogrammas and even more so to the idea of breeding but wanting to do the right thing. If you have any websites or pointers on where to look for such info too that’d be much appreciated.

Well just by definition it would be inbreeding. Linebreeding is when you have a trait in these fish you want to bring to the front, so you pick only fish that show that trait.
I personally would try not to breed with fish from the same line, but get healthy specimens from different lines. If the shops in your area should by any chance all get their fish from the same wholesaler this would be nonesense though, they will be all from the same farms then.

The best resources are this very forum, Tom Cs Website (www.tomc.no) and dwarfcichlid.com (https://dwarfcichlid.com/dwarfcichlid-com/ ) both owners of these sites are also present here on the forum.

Thankyou for this input, I am based in Australia so we really only have about a dozen different types of Apistogramma in the country, however on my side of the country that number is even more limited. So my goal is to eventually start introducing some of the lesser known or harder to get species in the Australian hobby to aquarists over this side of the country. I think my first hurdle will be making apistogramma's a fish that aquarists on my side of the country desire. However I do find that unless I buy from renowned breeders on the other side of the country, the majority of fish I can buy locally are from the second group you named in a previous reply. Which as I have already found results in it being very hard to find fish of high quality.

I see. in that case it would be best to FIRST peak people's interest and then go on breeding, putting it on hiatus if you will. I would not produce what I can't really sell yet.

However I do find that unless I buy from renowned breeders on the other side of the country, the majority of fish I can buy locally are from the second group you named in a previous reply. Which as I have already found results in it being very hard to find fish of high quality.

Yeah, a big problem with domestic breeds. Wild types are rarely as problematic.