Apistogramma Borelli "colony" breeding?

[Vix :D]

Hello all! I am brand new to this forum and was wanting to ask a question regarding a. Borelli breeding. While I do not currently have these fish I have a 40 gallon breeder that I will be setting up specifically for a pair of them, it will be only them in this tank along with hardscape/plants/hides etc. I'm aware that a. borelli are considered one of the more peaceful types and was wondering if it'd be possible to breed them and keep the fry with the parents? This breeding endeavor is something I'm doing as a gentle entry into cichlids and the like. (Never owned any kind of cichlid before) The fry have a guaranteed buyer. I've read some of the previous posts on this forum somewhat touching on this and I wasn't really able to come to a definite conclusion. I don't have space for any additional tanks, although I do have a 29 gallon community tank I could possibly separate the male to if necessary (not much in it, 7 ember tetras, 1 honey gourami, 3 otocinclus, and 5 cherry barbs) The barb numbers will be bolstered soon to about 8 or so, I originally had 6 but one died. It'd also be fine with me to rehome the ember tetras if overcrowding was an issue. My apologies for the long post, and thanks in advance!

 

[MacZ]

The fry have a guaranteed buyer.

Which means? A typical A. borellii female lays a new clutch of eggs every 3-4 weeks, if a good portion survives (20-40 individuals), and they are in good shape (best if put in a growout after the mother stops caring, so everybody gets the same food and water quality from that point onwards) and you brought them up to 3.5-4cm that means you will have a steady supply of fry after 2-3 months.
You can only cut that supply chain if you are able to separate the parents. In a "colony" (putting it in "" as colony is only the correct term for a lot of Tanganyika cichlids) you will have lots of brooding females and nobody is going to decimate their fry numbers, but you will also have all sizes and conditions. That's not really what wholesaler or retailer want.

I don't have space for any additional tank

And that means no proper growout, hence no stable quality to offer. I'd be very cautious.
A good setup for breeding dwarf cichlids with a focus on yield:
- 1-X breeding tanks with a resident female each (for A. borellii 40-60 Liters are fine)
- 1-X growout tanks (the bigger the less waterchanges, 100-120 Liters are ideal in my experience)
- 1-X separation tanks for the males, could be a community, could be a holding tank just for that fish.

Why a growout: To have the fish have a similar growth rate the temperature, water quality and food amounts have to be steady. Quality in the fish trade not only means colours have to be good, but also all fish have to be roughly the same size and shape. Runts lower wholesale prices, to wild of a quality mix may get your buyer from stepping back from purchase, leaving you with fish nobody wants. Keep that in mind.
As mentioned above, the usual sale-size is 4cm, it can be a bit smaller for small species such as A. borellii. To get them there takes up to 4 months depending on growout conditions.

although I do have a 29 gallon community tank I could possibly separate the male to if necessary (not much in it, 7 ember tetras, 1 honey gourami, 3 otocinclus, and 5 cherry barbs) The barb numbers will be bolstered soon to about 8 or so, I originally had 6 but one died. It'd also be fine with me to rehome the ember tetras if overcrowding was an issue.

The tank has a decent stocking density and even if you stock up the barbs and tetras to 10 each it will not be overstocked with a male A. borellii. Just make sure to send them through quarantine in that tank before moving any Apistogramma over.

 

[Mike Wise]

If it were me I'd buy a 15 gallon tank for breeding the borellii and use the 40 gallon breeder as a grow-out tank and use the 29 gallon tank as an temporary place for the male if there were and problems with the adult pair.

 

[MacZ]

If it were me I'd buy a 15 gallon tank for breeding the borellii and use the 40 gallon breeder as a grow-out tank and use the 29 gallon tank as an temporary place for the male if there were and problems with the adult pair.

Very good call!

 

[Vix :D]

Which means? A typical A. borellii female lays a new clutch of eggs every 3-4 weeks, if a good portion survives (20-40 individuals), and they are in good shape (best if put in a growout after the mother stops caring, so everybody gets the same food and water quality from that point onwards) and you brought them up to 3.5-4cm that means you will have a steady supply of fry after 2-3 months.
You can only cut that supply chain if you are able to separate the parents. In a "colony" (putting it in "" as colony is only the correct term for a lot of Tanganyika cichlids) you will have lots of brooding females and nobody is going to decimate their fry numbers, but you will also have all sizes and conditions. That's not really what wholesaler or retailer want.


And that means no proper growout, hence no stable quality to offer. I'd be very cautious.
A good setup for breeding dwarf cichlids with a focus on yield:
- 1-X breeding tanks with a resident female each (for A. borellii 40-60 Liters are fine)
- 1-X growout tanks (the bigger the less waterchanges, 100-120 Liters are ideal in my experience)
- 1-X separation tanks for the males, could be a community, could be a holding tank just for that fish.

Why a growout: To have the fish have a similar growth rate the temperature, water quality and food amounts have to be steady. Quality in the fish trade not only means colours have to be good, but also all fish have to be roughly the same size and shape. Runts lower wholesale prices, to wild of a quality mix may get your buyer from stepping back from purchase, leaving you with fish nobody wants. Keep that in mind.
As mentioned above, the usual sale-size is 4cm, it can be a bit smaller for small species such as A. borellii. To get them there takes up to 4 months depending on growout conditions.


The tank has a decent stocking density and even if you stock up the barbs and tetras to 10 each it will not be overstocked with a male A. borellii. Just make sure to send them through quarantine in that tank before moving any Apistogramma over.

Thanks for your reply! I wasn't trying to focus on yield or anything, and I was only meaning to raise one batch of fry at a time. I'm researching how to cull this breed in order to provide really healthy fish with excellent color. The person buying the fish is a local person who is looking for other local breeders/hobbyists to help supply their fish store as opposed to importing

 

[Vix :D]

Which means? A typical A. borellii female lays a new clutch of eggs every 3-4 weeks, if a good portion survives (20-40 individuals), and they are in good shape (best if put in a growout after the mother stops caring, so everybody gets the same food and water quality from that point onwards) and you brought them up to 3.5-4cm that means you will have a steady supply of fry after 2-3 months.
You can only cut that supply chain if you are able to separate the parents. In a "colony" (putting it in "" as colony is only the correct term for a lot of Tanganyika cichlids) you will have lots of brooding females and nobody is going to decimate their fry numbers, but you will also have all sizes and conditions. That's not really what wholesaler or retailer want.


And that means no proper growout, hence no stable quality to offer. I'd be very cautious.
A good setup for breeding dwarf cichlids with a focus on yield:
- 1-X breeding tanks with a resident female each (for A. borellii 40-60 Liters are fine)
- 1-X growout tanks (the bigger the less waterchanges, 100-120 Liters are ideal in my experience)
- 1-X separation tanks for the males, could be a community, could be a holding tank just for that fish.

Why a growout: To have the fish have a similar growth rate the temperature, water quality and food amounts have to be steady. Quality in the fish trade not only means colours have to be good, but also all fish have to be roughly the same size and shape. Runts lower wholesale prices, to wild of a quality mix may get your buyer from stepping back from purchase, leaving you with fish nobody wants. Keep that in mind.
As mentioned above, the usual sale-size is 4cm, it can be a bit smaller for small species such as A. borellii. To get them there takes up to 4 months depending on growout conditions.


The tank has a decent stocking density and even if you stock up the barbs and tetras to 10 each it will not be overstocked with a male A. borellii. Just make sure to send them through quarantine in that tank before moving any Apistogramma over.

I was mainly just curious if a 40 gallon breeder would be enough space to grow out however many fry would survive from a single batch, after being culled for deformities or any potential problems. As stated already I'm not necessarily trying to focus on profit, it's supposed to be more of a fun experience that has an additional bonus of selling a few fish here and there. So technically more of a bioload question than anything else ‍ Good to know on the "colony" terminology though, I wasn't aware of that!

 

[Vix :D]

If it were me I'd buy a 15 gallon tank for breeding the borellii and use the 40 gallon breeder as a grow-out tank and use the 29 gallon tank as an temporary place for the male if there were and problems with the adult pair.

Thank you for your reply! That sounds like a pretty ideal situation but unfortunately I don't have the space or money to get any additional tanks or other supplies necessary for one. I do have a 10 gallon I could separate the female to though if the 40 really needed to be kept as purely a growout tank. That tank currently only has 12 CPDs, 1 random male guppy (used to have some females, he bullied them to death) and some shrimp/snails so I think having the female there would be ok, correct me if I'm wrong though lol (probably should have mentioned the 10 a while ago...oops lol)

 

[MacZ]

. I'm researching how to cull this breed in order to provide really healthy fish with excellent color.

It's a species, not a breed. There are no criteria for that. Healthy, good colour fish come from healthy good quality foods (live and frozen, no dry foods, no bloodworms), proper maintenance (waterchanges and soft water) and a proper growout (appropriate space and as little stress as possible).

it's supposed to be more of a fun experience that has an additional bonus of selling a few fish here and there.

Well... then forget selling. You will be happy somebody gives you store credit. You should propably talk to the person whose willing to buy, whether you are both on the same page. Doesn't sound like it.

. That tank currently only has 12 CPDs, 1 random male guppy (used to have some females, he bullied them to death) and some shrimp/snails so I think having the female there would be ok, correct me if I'm wrong though lol (probably should have mentioned the 10 a while ago...oops lol)

Yeah well, makes three tanks of the sizes Mike and I mentioned. But you have too many fish. Probably think about rehoming half your stock (overall half, not half of each species.)

 

[Vix :D]

It's a species, not a breed. There are no criteria for that. Healthy, good colour fish come from healthy good quality foods (live and frozen, no dry foods, no bloodworms), proper maintenance (waterchanges and soft water) and a proper growout (appropriate space and as little stress as possible).


Well... then forget selling. You will be happy somebody gives you store credit. You should propably talk to the person whose willing to buy, whether you are both on the same page. Doesn't sound like it.


Yeah well, makes three tanks of the sizes Mike and I mentioned. But you have too many fish. Probably think about rehoming half your stock (overall half, not half of each species.)

Ah I see, thank you. I wasn't sure if they worked kind of like shrimp where you can cull in order to improve the color over time through selection and stuff like that. I'm relatively new to fishkeeping although I did have some tanks around 8 years ago but those were less than ideal lol, so please forgive my use of incorrect terms.

 

[Vix :D]

It's a species, not a breed. There are no criteria for that. Healthy, good colour fish come from healthy good quality foods (live and frozen, no dry foods, no bloodworms), proper maintenance (waterchanges and soft water) and a proper growout (appropriate space and as little stress as possible).


Well... then forget selling. You will be happy somebody gives you store credit. You should propably talk to the person whose willing to buy, whether you are both on the same page. Doesn't sound like it.


Yeah well, makes three tanks of the sizes Mike and I mentioned. But you have too many fish. Probably think about rehoming half your stock (overall half, not half of each species.)

With the success I've had with my tanks I thought I was potentially ready to venture into breeding but I see now that I should reconsider

 

[MacZ]

It takes several generations of selective breeding to "improve" colour in fish. With cichlids that means controlling the breeding specimens and the line for several years. It takes between 4 and 6 months from wiggler until the fish are ready to spawn the first time. If you want to see them in full colour to pick one to multiply the next generation we're at 7-8 months. Per generation. You would have to select from each generation, maybe letting several pairs spawn parallely... In short: for linebreeding fish you need time, space and money.

 

[Samala]

I was mainly just curious if a 40 gallon breeder would be enough space to grow out however many fry would survive from a single batch, after being culled for deformities or any potential problems. As stated already I'm not necessarily trying to focus on profit, it's supposed to be more of a fun experience that has an additional bonus of selling a few fish here and there.

You've had a lot of great, technical responses so far here but I want to add my experience as I keep Borellii as a "colony" in a 40 gal breeder that has been going strong for just ~4.5 years now. I regret that I never started/kept up a true tank thread for it, but this and this are some posts from the past.

Is a 40 gal enough space to growout surviving fry? Absolutely, it can be, and that has been my experience. Over the years I've had dozens of spawns and many many surviving juveniles go on to adulthood. Many I have kept, others I've given away. I've never had a steady enough supply to "sell" in the traditional sense but my LFS is generally very happy to take the pairs and trios that become available as the juveniles grow.

Has it been fun to keep Borellii this way? Emphatically, YES. I've experimented over time with the tank structure, the types of plants and levels of leaves/driftwood it contains, and whether or not I pull some of the juveniles to give them a growout boost in a separate tank of their own. This tank never fails to entertain and it has been and continues to be a low lift, low stress joy in my life. I keep up on large water changes and I focus more on pulling out excess plants (ie. when they start growing out of the tank..) as maintenance than anything else.

Is my tank a show tank? NOT EVEN CLOSE. I mention this because many people want a beautiful, aesthetically appealing setup in their home. That's a lovely goal, but my "colony" has done best when the tank is so full of plants and leaves/driftwood that I have to play a game of "find the fishes" for 5 minutes before I can spot even one of them.

Do I know how many fish I have in the "colony"? Heck no! There are definitely: 3 adult males (2 are nearly four years old and they are ancient looking), 6 adult females (3 breed when temps are right), at least 12 sub-adults of various ages and sizes. Currently there are no fry as I keep my tanks ambient and it's <70F lately here so the fish are not in breeding dress.

Do I have too many fish for a 40 gal? Very possibly... for me, it's less a question of bioload than it is territory/turf availability. That said, a trio of the sub-adults will likely be re-homed in a few weeks and I anticipate the ancient adults will die of old age sometime this year.

In sum, I definitely think this is a great approach to keeping Borellii and it works very well for me because my goals are to enjoy the fish and their behavior and interactions, rather than have a show tank or to breed for any real level of yield or profit. Consider your goals and aims when you decide how you want to approach it.

 

[Vix :D]

You've had a lot of great, technical responses so far here but I want to add my experience as I keep Borellii as a "colony" in a 40 gal breeder that has been going strong for just ~4.5 years now. I regret that I never started/kept up a true tank thread for it, but this and this are some posts from the past.

Is a 40 gal enough space to growout surviving fry? Absolutely, it can be, and that has been my experience. Over the years I've had dozens of spawns and many many surviving juveniles go on to adulthood. Many I have kept, others I've given away. I've never had a steady enough supply to "sell" in the traditional sense but my LFS is generally very happy to take the pairs and trios that become available as the juveniles grow.

Has it been fun to keep Borellii this way? Emphatically, YES. I've experimented over time with the tank structure, the types of plants and levels of leaves/driftwood it contains, and whether or not I pull some of the juveniles to give them a growout boost in a separate tank of their own. This tank never fails to entertain and it has been and continues to be a low lift, low stress joy in my life. I keep up on large water changes and I focus more on pulling out excess plants (ie. when they start growing out of the tank..) as maintenance than anything else.

Is my tank a show tank? NOT EVEN CLOSE. I mention this because many people want a beautiful, aesthetically appealing setup in their home. That's a lovely goal, but my "colony" has done best when the tank is so full of plants and leaves/driftwood that I have to play a game of "find the fishes" for 5 minutes before I can spot even one of them.

Do I know how many fish I have in the "colony"? Heck no! There are definitely: 3 adult males (2 are nearly four years old and they are ancient looking), 6 adult females (3 breed when temps are right), at least 12 sub-adults of various ages and sizes. Currently there are no fry as I keep my tanks ambient and it's <70F lately here so the fish are not in breeding dress.

Do I have too many fish for a 40 gal? Very possibly... for me, it's less a question of bioload than it is territory/turf availability. That said, a trio of the sub-adults will likely be re-homed in a few weeks and I anticipate the ancient adults will die of old age sometime this year.

In sum, I definitely think this is a great approach to keeping Borellii and it works very well for me because my goals are to enjoy the fish and their behavior and interactions, rather than have a show tank or to breed for any real level of yield or profit. Consider your goals and aims when you decide how you want to approach it.

Thank you for your reply! That definitely seems like a very fun tank to have. I recently spoke to the person I would be selling to and he has been incredibly reasonable, and explicitly stated he isn't necessarily looking for high yield breeders as he breeds himself and knows what it's like time/space wise. He also said that he doesn't mind growing out the fry, so long as they are old enough that they can do well through being transported and acclimated to his tanks and all that fun stuff. I will attach a photo of the current tank I've got started for them! It's only the second one that I've actively tried to "scape" or something to that effect but it turned out pretty good imo. More plants will be added still lol, I think it's safe to say I'm a bit addicted to crypts Sorry for bad pic quality but I think it gets the gist of it.

 

[Vix :D]

You've had a lot of great, technical responses so far here but I want to add my experience as I keep Borellii as a "colony" in a 40 gal breeder that has been going strong for just ~4.5 years now. I regret that I never started/kept up a true tank thread for it, but this and this are some posts from the past.

Is a 40 gal enough space to growout surviving fry? Absolutely, it can be, and that has been my experience. Over the years I've had dozens of spawns and many many surviving juveniles go on to adulthood. Many I have kept, others I've given away. I've never had a steady enough supply to "sell" in the traditional sense but my LFS is generally very happy to take the pairs and trios that become available as the juveniles grow.

Has it been fun to keep Borellii this way? Emphatically, YES. I've experimented over time with the tank structure, the types of plants and levels of leaves/driftwood it contains, and whether or not I pull some of the juveniles to give them a growout boost in a separate tank of their own. This tank never fails to entertain and it has been and continues to be a low lift, low stress joy in my life. I keep up on large water changes and I focus more on pulling out excess plants (ie. when they start growing out of the tank..) as maintenance than anything else.

Is my tank a show tank? NOT EVEN CLOSE. I mention this because many people want a beautiful, aesthetically appealing setup in their home. That's a lovely goal, but my "colony" has done best when the tank is so full of plants and leaves/driftwood that I have to play a game of "find the fishes" for 5 minutes before I can spot even one of them.

Do I know how many fish I have in the "colony"? Heck no! There are definitely: 3 adult males (2 are nearly four years old and they are ancient looking), 6 adult females (3 breed when temps are right), at least 12 sub-adults of various ages and sizes. Currently there are no fry as I keep my tanks ambient and it's <70F lately here so the fish are not in breeding dress.

Do I have too many fish for a 40 gal? Very possibly... for me, it's less a question of bioload than it is territory/turf availability. That said, a trio of the sub-adults will likely be re-homed in a few weeks and I anticipate the ancient adults will die of old age sometime this year.

In sum, I definitely think this is a great approach to keeping Borellii and it works very well for me because my goals are to enjoy the fish and their behavior and interactions, rather than have a show tank or to breed for any real level of yield or profit. Consider your goals and aims when you decide how you want to appro

Thank you for your reply! That definitely seems like a very fun tank to have. I recently spoke to the person I would be selling to and he has been incredibly reasonable, and explicitly stated he isn't necessarily looking for high yield breeders as he breeds himself and knows what it's like time/space wise. He also said that he doesn't mind growing out the fry, so long as they are old enough that they can do well through being transported and acclimated to his tanks and all that fun stuff. I will attach a photo of the current tank I've got started for them! It's only the second one that I've actively tried to "scape" or something to that effect but it turned out pretty good imo. More plants will be added still lol, I think it's safe to say I'm a bit addicted to crypts Sorry for bad pic quality but I think it gets the gist of it.

Unfortunately I bought and put in my gravel before realizing that apistos prefer sand to sift through/whatever they do with it so hopefully this will be ok for them, I think the gravel is too big for them to want to attempt eating it but I've never kept them before so I'm not really sure lol, if need be then I will change it though.

 

[Vix :D]

You've had a lot of great, technical responses so far here but I want to add my experience as I keep Borellii as a "colony" in a 40 gal breeder that has been going strong for just ~4.5 years now. I regret that I never started/kept up a true tank thread for it, but this and this are some posts from the past.

Is a 40 gal enough space to growout surviving fry? Absolutely, it can be, and that has been my experience. Over the years I've had dozens of spawns and many many surviving juveniles go on to adulthood. Many I have kept, others I've given away. I've never had a steady enough supply to "sell" in the traditional sense but my LFS is generally very happy to take the pairs and trios that become available as the juveniles grow.

Has it been fun to keep Borellii this way? Emphatically, YES. I've experimented over time with the tank structure, the types of plants and levels of leaves/driftwood it contains, and whether or not I pull some of the juveniles to give them a growout boost in a separate tank of their own. This tank never fails to entertain and it has been and continues to be a low lift, low stress joy in my life. I keep up on large water changes and I focus more on pulling out excess plants (ie. when they start growing out of the tank..) as maintenance than anything else.

Is my tank a show tank? NOT EVEN CLOSE. I mention this because many people want a beautiful, aesthetically appealing setup in their home. That's a lovely goal, but my "colony" has done best when the tank is so full of plants and leaves/driftwood that I have to play a game of "find the fishes" for 5 minutes before I can spot even one of them.

Do I know how many fish I have in the "colony"? Heck no! There are definitely: 3 adult males (2 are nearly four years old and they are ancient looking), 6 adult females (3 breed when temps are right), at least 12 sub-adults of various ages and sizes. Currently there are no fry as I keep my tanks ambient and it's <70F lately here so the fish are not in breeding dress.

Do I have too many fish for a 40 gal? Very possibly... for me, it's less a question of bioload than it is territory/turf availability. That said, a trio of the sub-adults will likely be re-homed in a few weeks and I anticipate the ancient adults will die of old age sometime this year.

In sum, I definitely think this is a great approach to keeping Borellii and it works very well for me because my goals are to enjoy the fish and their behavior and interactions, rather than have a show tank or to breed for any real level of yield or profit. Consider your goals and aims when you decide how you want to approach it.

I definitely need to add more plants to the tank or at least faster growing ones as I bought 3 different potted crypts and split them out, turns out I have around 30 in that tank right now... (split up my existing crypt and got 7 from that one, plus one plant is sending out a runner) Got so much frogbit in there right now lol, I sell a good portion of it but there's been a lull in that so it's just been absolutely exploding. But yeah more stem plants, especially in the middle where there seems to be mostly crypts. Also going to get caves for sure and maybe some more rocks. I'm still a student so this tank is in my parent's home, and right smack dab in the dining room so it will have to look nice or at least be somewhat aesthetically pleasing lol.

 

[Vix :D]

Thank you for your reply! That definitely seems like a very fun tank to have. I recently spoke to the person I would be selling to and he has been incredibly reasonable, and explicitly stated he isn't necessarily looking for high yield breeders as he breeds himself and knows what it's like time/space wise. He also said that he doesn't mind growing out the fry, so long as they are old enough that they can do well through being transported and acclimated to his tanks and all that fun stuff. I will attach a photo of the current tank I've got started for them! It's only the second one that I've actively tried to "scape" or something to that effect but it turned out pretty good imo. More plants will be added still lol, I think it's safe to say I'm a bit addicted to crypts Sorry for bad pic quality but I think it gets the gist of it.

I really appreciate your input though, while there are certainly the ideal/technical ways of doing it they have to live in the wild somehow. (obviously that is on a much larger scale and we can only recreate it to the best of our abilities) I was feeling quite discouraged and was contemplating other options so a success story like yours is very nice to hear Probably will still separate out the male to my 29 just to prevent multi spawns since I would like to keep track of it more but I don't see why the female staying in the 40 with the fry would be a problem unless she was stressing them out and or eating them

 

[Vix :D]

Thank you for your reply! That definitely seems like a very fun tank to have. I recently spoke to the person I would be selling to and he has been incredibly reasonable, and explicitly stated he isn't necessarily looking for high yield breeders as he breeds himself and knows what it's like time/space wise. He also said that he doesn't mind growing out the fry, so long as they are old enough that they can do well through being transported and acclimated to his tanks and all that fun stuff. I will attach a photo of the current tank I've got started for them! It's only the second one that I've actively tried to "scape" or something to that effect but it turned out pretty good imo. More plants will be added still lol, I think it's safe to say I'm a bit addicted to crypts Sorry for bad pic quality but I think it gets the gist of it.

More plants have been added since this picture though, mainly just my bronze crypt that I split up