Apistogramma uaupesi "red face"

[skoram]

Hello all. This is my first post on this forum so I'll introduce myself very quickly. My name is Sam and I'm an American expat living in Seoul, Korea. I've been keeping fish for nearly 15 years and somewhat recently became interested in Apistos starting with a few agassizii I purchased on impulse from a LFS about 3 months ago.

I quickly became fascinated by their appearance and behavior and got bit by the proverbial apisto "bug." I started doing some research and made a decision to try my hand at another, rarer species of Apisto culminating in the purchase of a pair of wild caught Apistogramma uaupesi "red face." I paid 165,000 Korean won for them which is around $150. I have no idea whether or not this would be considered a "normal" price for them in the US but I do know that this is about what other stores here charge for rarer wild caught specimens.

Given the quality and price of these beautiful fish, I want to make sure I do everything I can to ensure that they thrive - which brings me to this post. This is my current setup:

Tank size: 120L (about 30 gallons - 60x45x45 cm)
Filtration: Eheim 2213 (flow reduced with spray bar and slight closing of outflow valve)
Lights: 20W LED fixture (7 hours per day)
Pressurized CO2 with atomic diffuser 7 hours per day
Flora: several species of Echinodorus, Rotala indica, Blyxa, Staurygene repens, Anubias nana v. petite, Cryptocoryne parva, Java ferns, water lettuce and amazon frogbit

Water parameters:
pH: 7.0
NH4: 0
N02: 0
N03: 10
Both KH and GH are very low almost 0. The tap water in Seoul is quite soft. I ordered a TDS meter which should be arriving soon.

The uaupesi share this tank with the aforementioned pair of agassizii in addition to about 8 large Yamato shrimp, 3 Otocinclus and 9 dwarf rasboras which I just added today as dithers. It was originally 10 rasboras but the male uaupesi attacked and severely injured one about 10 minutes ago as I began this post. It seems to me now that I may have to remove the remaining rasboras.

Here are some recent shots of the tank (taken with my phone camera so color and picture quality are terrible):





Thanks for reading and if you have any suggestions and advice for me, please feel free to share

 

[Mike Wise]

Your cost seems in line with what hobbyists in Korea, Japan, and Hong Kong tell me is normal. It is almost twice the price of what they sell for in the US (we're notoriously cheap hobbyists compared to the rest of the world). That's why we don't see rarer species very often. I'd suggest that your uaupesi would be happier at a lower pH, preferably below pH6.0. It is, after all, a true blackwater species. Additionally, your tank decor is not ideal. It is much too open. I wouldn't be surprised if the more dominant male takes over the entire tank as his territory and causes major problems for the other apistos.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Nice fish, they would be better with a bit more cover, at least until the plants grow in. Do you use EI (Estimative Index)? I just wondered because the NO3 level is quite low if you are adding CO2.
In really soft water pH isn't a very useful measurement, but if you have very low dKH the CO2 addition will cause the pH to decline to very low levels.

cheers Darrel

 

[UnicornsvstheWorld]

More cover as stated before, you could try more plants but obviously they can cost or if you want something more natural to their habitat go with dried oak or Indian Almond Leaves.
You may also want to drop the PH, there's many method for that and it's best to research which suites you and your fish best.

Anyway good luck with your Apisto's

 

[skoram]

Wow, thanks for all the great replies.

I was aware that I would have to lower the pH and was in the process of trying to determine the most appropriate way to do this. My initial thought was to add some pH lowering leaf litter (http://www.greenfish.co.kr/shop/view.htm?uid=604722&cat_uid=63&bcat_uid=10&scat_uid=0) combined with the temporary use of an HOB filter with Sera super peat granules.

I also agree that the tank needs more cover but am not sure if there is a sufficient way to address this issue without completely altering the scape and adding more wood and elevated branches. I do plan to add more plants, including floating plants, and have several Echinodorus (scabe, red rubin, ozelot and horemanii) in the background that have yet to reach their full size. However, based on some of the other Apisto tanks I've seen, I have the feeling plant growth and additions will not provide sufficient cover.

Darrel: I used PPS dosing on this tank when it only housed tetras and guppies but stopped after changing the stock to Apistos since I believed ferts would significantly raise the TDS. Most of the plants in the tank are root feeders so I substituted liquid ferts for osmocote tabs. You did, however, echo a sentiment I've had for several weeks - that my CO2 injection and even lighting may be too much for the plants that I have without liquid ferts.

To be clear, my priority is the Apistos over the plants, though it'd be ideal if both could live together in harmony, even if plant growth rate suffers a bit.

 

[Josh]

Welcome to the forum! Glad you've joined our community. I love the layout and setup of your tank (even with the cell phone photo ) It looks great!

 

[wethumbs]

I am currently keeping and breeding the A. uaupesi. They are very aggressive to each other as they will rip the fins off each others and plenty of hiding places are a must. pH is definitely high as other has pointed out. I keep mine in pH 5.5 for non-breeding and pH 3.5 to 4 for breeding. Unfortunately, most of the plants will not do well at that level of pH. They simply 'melt away' in the 'battery acid'.

 

[skoram]

Josh, thanks for the welcome

Wethumbs: I was told and read that they need around 5 - 5.5 pH for breeding ... I've never heard of freshwater fish living in pH 3.5 water. I don't doubt what you're saying but that's pretty extreme. How did you get your water to become so acidic? Aside from the plants, will the other inhabitants (otos, shrimp, rasboras, and perhaps even agassizii?) also have a difficult time in that pH?

I'm also wondering whether the fish I bought are actually A. uaupesi. After looking at the fish closely I've noticed that there are some differences with many of the uaupesi photos I have seen. The photo I posted is pretty low quality but if you look at the page of the store from which I bought them there are good photos of what the fish I purchased actually look like:

http://www.a2be.net/front/php/product.php?product_no=1813&main_cate_no=38&display_group=1

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Darrel: I used PPS dosing on this tank when it only housed tetras and guppies but stopped after changing the stock to Apistos since I believed ferts would significantly raise the TDS. Most of the plants in the tank are root feeders so I substituted liquid ferts for osmocote tabs. You did, however, echo a sentiment I've had for several weeks - that my CO2 injection and even lighting may be too much for the plants that I have without liquid ferts. To be clear, my priority is the Apistos over the plants, though it'd be ideal if both could live together in harmony, even if plant growth rate suffers a bit.

OK, that all makes sense. Yes you can basically turn the CO2 off if you aren't dosing. I use the Duckweed Index (towards end of <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/daphnia.12707/>) as a technique for retaining some plant growth

I was told and read that they need around 5 - 5.5 pH for breeding ... I've never heard of freshwater fish living in pH 3.5 water. I don't doubt what you're saying but that's pretty extreme.

The problem is really with the pH scale. pH is a ratio, and doesn't tell us anything about amounts. We sort of get around this as a problem by using dKH, a measure of the carbonate buffering.

In the Rio Negro etc. there are very few bases (H+ ion acceptors) of any description, and the weak humic acids etc (H+ ion donors) will lower the pH down to very low levels. The way I visualise acidity/alkalinity is in terms amounts as well as ratio, in very soft, low conductivity water any small addition of H+ donors will lower the pH dramatically.

Although the pH is similar to "battery acid" the reserve of H+ ion donor is small (so really a better analogy would be "a drop of vinegar in a litre of RO"). Have a look at this thread <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/ok.12048/>.

Aside from the plants, will the other inhabitants (otos, shrimp, rasboras, and perhaps even agassizii?) also have a difficult time in that pH?

Shrimps won't survive, the others should be fine.

Unfortunately, most of the plants will not do well at that level of pH. They simply 'melt away'.

Amazon Frog-bit will still grow, and also plants like Tonina, Eriocaulon etc which are difficult in normal circumstances are good. Have a look at this one for some more suggestions: <http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/threads/plants-in-the-low-kh-aquarium.13344/>

After looking at the fish closely I've noticed that there are some differences with many of the uaupesi photos I have see

I'm extremely poor at ID's but it looks about right to me.

cheers Darrel

 

[skoram]

Darrel you are a wealth of information. Thank you.

Based on the suggestions made in this thread, I've decided to rescape the tank over the weekend. I plan to replace the ADA Africana substrate with sand, add a few pieces of large "branchy" driftwood, dried leaves, more "caves" and more floating plants, including Phylanthus fluitans and Amazon frogbit. I'll probably remove most of the other plants with exception to the Echinos and the Crypt parvas. I also ordered some Mr. Aqua Black Peat Granules for my filter to help lower the tank's pH. On this note does anyone have experience with this particular brand of filter media for soft/blackwater tanks?

 

[Mike Wise]

1. Looked at the link and the fish looks like A. uaupesi to me.

2. A community tank is not a (good) breeding tank. (Now where have I heard that before??)

3. Many fish in the Rio Negro/upper Río Orinoco system have been reported to be collected at pH values around 3.5. In this region, my guess is that the pH fluctuates considerably over the day - but never gets near neutral values.

 

[skoram]

Thanks for the confirmation and tips Mike.

I assume the rasboras and otos are OK and it's just the other Apistos I need to be concerned about?

I will attempt to reduce the pH through peat filtration (using aforementioned black peat granules) but I'm not sure that will bring me all the way down to 3.5. Although the tap water in Seoul is very soft, I guess I may need to use RO water.

 

[wethumbs]

You should just enjoy the fish rather than trying to alter your tank and try to breed them. A. uaupesi is picky about their mates, just having a male and female usually will not result in any spawning activity. It is also not a beginner apisto for learning how to breed dwarf cichlid. If your goal is try to breed fish you can start with something a lot easier and closer to what your tap water has to offer. On the other hand, A. agassizii is a easier species to breed with minimal adjustments from your tap water. Trying to master too many things at once usually will end in failure.

 

[skoram]

Thanks for the wise advice Wethumbs.

I'm not actually altering the tank to breed them, breeding is a secondary concern that may or may not come to the fore down the line.

It seems to me that, whether or not I wish to breed them, 2 things need to change: the tank decor (more cover, density, hiding places) and the water pH.

Due to these factors I arrived at the conclusion that it would not be feasible to try to maintain this as a "planted tank" aside from a few species like echinodorus and amazon frogbit. I think CO2, ferts and high lighting are also counter to the needs of these apistos.

I could focus on the agassizii, but I've already purchased the uaupesi at a steep cost (fish cannot be returned for refund in Korea unless I can prove illness or injury at the time of sale). Combined with their relative rarity, I think it would be a shame not to do my best for them. If there is an issue with the agassizii I can always return them to the store for a loss of about $15 (I paid 16,000 won for the pair).

 

[skoram]

Wethumbs, after looking over this thread again I think I see where your concern came from. I'm not planning to try to bring the tank down to pH 3.5 any time soon. I think I'll be satisfied if I can get it down to 5.5 as you originally pointed out for regular living. If and when I do decide to give breeding a try, I am curious how people manage to bring the pH down so low. As I mentioned earlier, I highly doubt peat filtration alone will be sufficient for that level of acidity.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I'm not planning to try to bring the tank down to pH 3.5 any time soon. I think I'll be satisfied if I can get it down to 5.5 as you originally pointed out for regular living.

I'd just try and forget about the "exact pH" at the moment, in very soft water pH is always going to be unstable. In a planted tank you will get large pH changes during the diurnal cycle as the plants photosynthesize, and the ratio of oxygen (O2 and the base in O-H) and CO2 (a small proportion of which forms carbonic acid H2CO3) change.

I'd just concentrate on good food (lots of live food, BBS, Daphnia, Grindal worms etc.) and some more cover in the tank.

If and when I do decide to give breeding a try, I am curious how people manage to bring the pH down so low. As I mentioned earlier, I highly doubt peat filtration alone will be sufficient for that level of acidity.

Because you don't have any carbonate buffering in the Rio Negro, any small addition of weak acids (like the humic acids from leaf litter) will lower the pH. If you have a lot of humic compounds (you can estimate this from the water tint, darker means more tannins and acids, and this is also why they are "Black-water" rivers) and no bases, the pH will fall to the very low levels that "wethumbs" mentions.

You still haven't got a lot of acids (H+ ion donors), you just haven't got any bases (H+ ion acceptors) to neutralize them. If you start with RO. (no dissolved compounds of any description) any addition of an acid (like the humic compounds from sphagnum peat) will cause the pH to fall to below pH4.

I hope that makes sense, have a look a this article by a Scots fish breeder Colin Dunlop <http://www.seriouslyfish.com/all-the-leaves-are-brown/>.

cheers Darrel

 

[wethumbs]

Before you try to adjust the pH of the tank, it would be essential to know the definition of pH and its affects on fish. Only then, you will understand the consequences of your actions. pH is simply defined as the negative logarithm of H+ concentration. pH being in logarithmic scale means a change from pH of 7 to 6 is a change in ten times (10x) in H+ concentration. Fish do not react well with sudden increase of pH as it will cause extensive gill damages such as gill lamellae erosion, inflammation of gill filaments, as well as edema. The last thing you want is a couple of dead A. uaupesi in the tank. If they are doing well in it right now, just enjoy it instead of causing them any unnecessary stress and flush the 165000 Won don't the toilet (literally).

Impulse buying on fish is usually a bad idea. It is always better do some research on the fish you would like to purchase before opening up the wallet. There are many times I have to walk away from a tank of fish I want in the LFS only returning to them after doing the necessary research. Also, don't forget to invest on pH meter, conductivity/TDS meter, or other meters that are useful in monitoring the water parameters. I personally don't like to tell others how to adjust the pH. The last thing I want is to get blame on killing someone's prize fish.

 

[skoram]

It wasn't an impulse purchase exactly - I spent about 2 weeks staring at the photos on the website and mulling the decision over - but clearly I hadn't done enough research. For one thing, I thought the decor of my tank would be OK since I had several caves and a medium number of plants. I would have been better off had I posted here first before buying.

I will follow your advice and start by just adding some natural dried leaves. I guess this should cause a relatively mild and gradual decrease in pH to safely "get the ball rolling" in the right direction while closely monitoring the fish's condition.

I'm also trying out some weaker lights to give the fish more shade:

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Before you try to adjust the pH of the tank, it would be essential to know the definition of pH and its affects on fish. Only then, you will understand the consequences of your actions. pH is simply defined as the negative logarithm of H+ concentration. pH being in logarithmic scale means a change from pH of 7 to 6 is a change in ten times (10x) in H+ concentration.....Impulse buying on fish is usually a bad idea. It is always better do some research on the fish you would like to purchase before opening up the wallet.

I'm not going to disagree with any of this, but I don't think that the situation for the OP is hopeless.

The main reason would be that even with the log10 nature of the pH scale, in this case it only needs a very small amount of H+ ion donors to lower the pH of the water, because the water has very few bases to start off with.

I'm fairly confident that it is changes in water chemistry that effect the fish, not changes in pH directly. You can show this by the large number of "added CO2" users, where there are have rapid drops in pH (when they turn the CO2 on), followed by rapid rises in pH (when they turn the CO2 off), this is caused by the carbonate ~ carbonic acid equilibrium, and this doesn't change the alkalinity.

In my heavily planted tanks, containing water with about 2 - 3dKH and 80 - 100 microS conductivity I'll get a diurnal variation of ~ 2 orders of magnitude (pH6 to pH8) purely by changes in the CO2/O2 content of the water during photosynthesis.

In soft water small changes in chemistry cause large changes in pH, in buffered water you need to make large changes in water chemistry to lower the pH.

If we start from the situation that the OP both has the fish, and has access to very soft tap water I don't see any reason why he can't use peat filtration and some dead leaves to reduce the pH and hardness to very low levels without adding any chemicals to the water.

Sphagnum peat works to soften water because it was formed in rain fed mires, has a high CEC, and all the exchange sites are initially filled with H+ ions.

cheers Darrel

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Your tank looks better already, and I don't think getting them to breed is an impossible aim. This is a black water tank belonging to a Polish Apistogramma keeper "Ruki".

cheers Darrel