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Apisto Borreli Opal had fry. What do I do?

Sordbodan

Member
After 6 weeks another update and some questions. They are now 4 months old and almost an inch for the females, over an inch for the males. And I have 2 of each;

tempImagezB9dcm.jpg


But here is the problem. They laid eggs (see lower right corner of next picture
IMG_2679.jpeg
I am shocked. I did not realize they reached maturity that quickly. And the females were fighting like crazy. I had to put a partition to separate them.

Even through the partition they tried to go at each other. Also, I have no idea who laid the eggs
IMG_2682.jpeg
 

Samala

Member
First off: Congratulations! I am wildly impressed with their size and that you've grown them out to maturity in such a short time. (What are you feeding?)

Second: If I were you, I'd move the males and one female to the main tank and leave a female with the eggs. You'd have to guess which one is the mother, but suspect you will lose the eggs anyway if all four remain in the growout, even with the partition up, just due to stress. The color in the video suggests the eggs are fertilized.

Third: Whats the plan for the two males? Have seen posts here that males that grow up together (or are related) are more likely to tolerate one another in a home territory. I'd be tempted to keep all four.
 

Sordbodan

Member
Thanks Samala. You have been so helpful throughout.

1: I feed them baby brine shrimp mainly. I liked the Ziss hatcher so much that I now make enough batches to feed all my fish with it. I supplement it with micro worms and Hikkari first bites. I tried Hikkari nano pellets (the main food for my other fish) but they are unresponsive to that.

2: Sounds like a good idea to move everyone to the main tank. I guess I was not prepared for them to reach maturity so fast.There were some eggs that got fungus, so I removed those. Glad to hear the rest are fertilized. I'll put some caves in the main tank as well to give them some respite.

3: I plan to keep all four. I actually bought a giant tank over the holidays. Someone was selling a used Red Sea Peninsula 500 for 60% off. He had it for only 3 months and had to move for work. It is 4ftx2ftx2t, 120gallons. I am currently setting it up - will probably be another month or so. At that point I'll be moving all my tanks into that one. I'll use a portion of the sump as a fry grow-out for fry and plants. I am guessing a tank of that size is sufficient to keep the four. Given that until the eggs were laid, they did not have and aggression issues, I am hoping the 40gallon tank will be big enough for the three until the new tank is ready.
 

Samala

Member
Amazing! What a steal on a 120gal, I am super jealous! That's the size tank I'd like to have once we are in our permanent house. Should be plenty of space for a colony and I like the plan to use the sump as grow out. Imagine the hardest part will be limiting the other fish you want to include in such a big tank. :) Oh, and managing all the fertilizers to keep the plants happy. Keep us posted on the eggs and the tank build!
 

Sordbodan

Member
I am excited abut the stocking options. I'd love to get an additional small cichlid. Maybe Kribensis? Rams need too much heat. I can't think of anything else. I love my apisto's personalities. Tetra's and rasboras etc. don't even come close. Maybe Angels?

As for plants, one thing I learned is that I no longer want to do the high light, stems type of tank. Keeping up with the weekly trimming is a real chore in a 40G. And missing a beat means an algae soup in a matter of a week or two. I can only imagine what it'd be like in a large tank. I'll probably go with slower growing plants. My Crystal shrimp tank has been going for 15 months and I finally have to thin out the plants.

Unfortunately all of the eggs got white fuzz on them. I am guessing water flow isn't good enough in the breeder box to keep them oxygenated. Once I get them in the main tank, the problem should be solved for the next batch. The one hesitation I have about moving them to the main tank is feeding them. Now I can spot feed them. In a larger tank I'll have to hope they are outgoing enough.
 

anewbie

Active Member
While I agree stem plants a pia i've never had any issue with algae. I do keep a few guppies who will graze on alage as well as snails. If you don't want to deal with stem plants you could focus on some of the less common anubias as well as more interesting sword plants. A few that i've found interesting including prinz kleiner, parviflorus as well as Uruguayensis. A couple of more interesting anubia include Anubias barteri var. glabra, nana golden, afzelii ... there are many 10's to pick from. There are also some interesting crypts.... lots of plants besides stems.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Hi all,
As for plants, one thing I learned is that I no longer want to do the high light, stems type of tank. Keeping up with the weekly trimming is a real chore in a 40G. And missing a beat means an algae soup in a matter of a week or two. I can only imagine what it'd be like in a large tank. I'll probably go with slower growing plants.
That is why I use slow growing ferns, mosses and aroids as the permanent planting in my tanks. I use a floating plant as my "stem", they aren't CO2 limited, they act as a "net curtain" and they are really easy to remove when you want thin them.

cheers Darrel
 

Sordbodan

Member
While I agree stem plants a pia i've never had any issue with algae. I do keep a few guppies who will graze on alage as well as snails. If you don't want to deal with stem plants you could focus on some of the less common anubias as well as more interesting sword plants. A few that i've found interesting including prinz kleiner, parviflorus as well as Uruguayensis. A couple of more interesting anubia include Anubias barteri var. glabra, nana golden, afzelii ... there are many 10's to pick from. There are also some interesting crypts.... lots of plants besides stems.
Cool ideas. Thanks. I looked them all up. I especially like Uruguayensis and Anubias barteri var. glabra (the variegated version looked stunning in the images). I'll see what is available in Canada. Options are a bit more limited here (especially internet shopping for live things is far less available limiting sources for rare plants and fish.
 

Sordbodan

Member
Hi all,

That is why I use slow growing ferns, mosses and aroids as the permanent planting in my tanks. I use a floating plant as my "stem", they aren't CO2 limited, they act as a "net curtain" and they are really easy to remove when you want thin them.

cheers Darrel
I used to have Salvinia but got rid of it since they blocked light and made cleaning up trimmings (especially Monte Carlo) a pain. But now, with more infrequent trimming and no carpet plants, floating plants would make sense again. I'd prefer to go larger size plants though. Perhaps Amazon frogbit in @Samala's pictures looked awesome? Any other suggestions?
 

Sordbodan

Member
Kribs and apistos are not a good mix; do a search here. I suggest a dwarf acara.
Thanks. I was wondering whether Kribs would work given that they occupy the same part of the tank. I'll research here and also check out Dwarf Acara. Are they fine with plants?
 

Sordbodan

Member
Hi all,

I'm a <"Frogbit fan">.

cheers Darrel
I read through many of the links and their links (and then of course it became a bit of a rabbit hole :)). Very informative. Thanks for sharing. I like your duckweed test idea. I actually used it unwittingly, in my shrimp tanks. Complementing it with TDS measurements addresses the concern I had - how to know if there is too much Nitrate. It is definitely a good idea for the large tank I am working on.

PS: I also agree with your cycling comments. I cycled my last two planted tanks with just plants - no ammonia. Internet is too confusing about this - too many people don't understand the distinction between fish only and planted tanks.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Hi all,
I like your duckweed test idea. I actually used it unwittingly, in my shrimp tanks.
My guess is that many people are using a similar approach, I've just given it a name. Over time I'm hoping to reference it more fully. There is a start to this at <"UKAPS: The Scientific background to the Leaf Colour Chart">.
Complementing it with TDS measurements addresses the concern I had - how to know if there is too much Nitrate.
It was partially the difficulties involved in <"accurate nitrate testing (NO3-)"> that started me down the road to the "Duckweed Index".

In terms of what happens outside of fish keeping, in the aquaculture, waste and potable water supply industry they use a mixture of analytical methods and bioassay to quantify water and when scientists attempt to classify freshwater they use a mixture of analytical methods, BOD measurement and invertebrate biotic index.

Unfortunately neither BOD nor Biotic Index are really available to us in the strictest sense, so I used the principles, but slightly tweaked them to the resources we had available to us.
I also agree with your cycling comments. I cycled my last two planted tanks with just plants - no ammonia. Internet is too confusing about this - too many people don't understand the distinction between fish only and planted tanks.
You might be interested in this conversation with <"Dr Tim Hovanec (again on UKAPS)">. I'll be honest, I still get a regular stream of <"hate mail" about the cycling posts">. When I started posting them <"I was pretty sure"> I was right, but I didn't have any <"scientific references to back them up with">, now, for scientists, the past is a different country, but unfortunately not on most fish-keeping forums.

cheers Darrel
 

Samala

Member
Darrel's posts are a treasure trove of links and information. I've spent a lot of time lurking on UKAPS as a result; you'd probably enjoy all the planted tank discussion and inspiration there. Not sure if I can post frogbit to you but will have a look at the rules.

Kribensis are beautiful, but somewhat bratty in my experience, and jumpers, and they were always bulldozing the sand/substrate.

Laetacara are on my wishlist. Those would be lovely in a tank heavy on lower maintenance sword plants, floaters, leaf litter and some branches along with borelli colony. Toss in pencilfish and call it a day.

Have you moved anyone yet? Perhaps the eggs weren't fertilized afterall, might take the little males a few tries. I'm still so surprised they laid the eggs on the side of the box! I recently tried to slow down breeding with my pair by removing their favorite caves but they've surprised me by making use of a live oak leaf (only 2" long or so) that creates the tiniest shadowy spot. Imagine that's similar to what is used in wild.
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Hi all,
Darrel's posts are a treasure trove of links and information. I've spent a lot of time lurking on UKAPS as a result
Thank you, that is kind of you, I never know if any-one reads them.

I was actually a member of Apistogramma.com when I joined UKAPS. At that point there was an active <"member of both forums"> @ed seeley and he suggested that I might find UKAPS interesting. I already knew of Tom Barr ((@plantbrain on UKAPS) from <"the Krib">.

I've posted much the same content on both those forums (and <"PlanetCatfish">) , where generally they have been reasonably well received.

cheers Darrel
 

Sordbodan

Member
Hi all,

My guess is that many people are using a similar approach, I've just given it a name. Over time I'm hoping to reference it more fully. There is a start to this at <"UKAPS: The Scientific background to the Leaf Colour Chart">.

It was partially the difficulties involved in <"accurate nitrate testing (NO3-)"> that started me down the road to the "Duckweed Index".

In terms of what happens outside of fish keeping, in the aquaculture, waste and potable water supply industry they use a mixture of analytical methods and bioassay to quantify water and when scientists attempt to classify freshwater they use a mixture of analytical methods, BOD measurement and invertebrate biotic index.

Unfortunately neither BOD nor Biotic Index are really available to us in the strictest sense, so I used the principles, but slightly tweaked them to the resources we had available to us.

You might be interested in this conversation with <"Dr Tim Hovanec (again on UKAPS)">. I'll be honest, I still get a regular stream of <"hate mail" about the cycling posts">. When I started posting them <"I was pretty sure"> I was right, but I didn't have any <"scientific references to back them up with">, now, for scientists, the past is a different country, but unfortunately not on most fish-keeping forums.

cheers Darrel
I'll definitely check out the links. Thank you. I actually am a member of the UKAPS as well but don't post much. I am thinking of doing a journal of my new tank. Maybe I'll mirror it here and there.
 

Sordbodan

Member
Laetacara are on my wishlist. Those would be lovely in a tank heavy on lower maintenance sword plants, floaters, leaf litter and some branches along with borelli colony. Toss in pencilfish and call it a day.

They seem interesting. I'll see whether I can find them in Toronto.
Have you moved anyone yet? Perhaps the eggs weren't fertilized afterall, might take the little males a few tries. I'm still so surprised they laid the eggs on the side of the box! I recently tried to slow down breeding with my pair by removing their favorite caves but they've surprised me by making use of a live oak leaf (only 2" long or so) that creates the tiniest shadowy spot. Imagine that's similar to what is used in wild.
Have not move them yet. I decided to move them to my 23G. Currently there are two honey gouramis and some ottos in there. I'll move the gouramis to to the main tank and the 4 into the 23G. This way if they have eggs again, the fry will have a chance.

Actually, this is the second time they laid eggs, in the same spot. The first time was three weeks ago and they were clearly not fertilized. Before I realized they were eggs, I had actually started to vacuum them up. I am not sure why they like that spot. I agree that an oak leaf is a much more natural location for them. I guess in my case it was a desperation since I did not provide them anything remotely suitable. I keep on getting caught off guard by how eager they are to breed.
 

Sordbodan

Member
As an update, I was impressed how quickly the female with the eggs lost color after I removed the fungus infected eggs. The below picture is 24 hours after I removed the eggs, and she has gone completely pale:

IMG_2687.jpeg


The other female is still bright yellow:

IMG_2688.jpeg
 
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