Apistogramma baenschi “Inka”

[aquaticclarity]

Dave,

Don't worry about degrading the genetic quality of my fish! These guys will be just fine with your fish. But thank you for your concern. I'm nor sure how the discussion went from Ben asking if he had a male and female baenschi all the way to bashing the quality of my fish (which neither of you have at this point). Dave, please keep things civil before I get truly upset. The quality of your fish is not in question (and again...I'm not sure why the quality of my fish is being slammed). Only the question of the sex of the fish is being questioned. Personally I view that as a great opportunity for you, Dave, to share your vast experience and wisdom with keeping and working with the fish and teach the rest of us how to properly sex the fish by the same means you are using. You state it's a pair. OK. Why get upset about it? Time will quickly prove what sex the fish are. No need to get this upset about it and throw a fit. Just let the fish prove you right!

F30 Dave? Would that be generations removed from the first time the fish was exported? That might be close. A little high I think, maybe more like F20, but not out of the realm of possibility.

The fish Ben contacted me about are wild caught A. baenschi that were sent up by Mr. Panduro. I agree with you that the exact colors and to an extent marking will vary from collection point to collection point. I remember back in the early 1990's getting panduro and nijsseni in at the same time along with a third "species" of fish that looked to be an intermediate between the two other species! All wild caught fish and all exported seperetly from each other (each imported as it's own distinct fish).

Below are a few pictures of the baenschi stock I've been bringing in. The male would not come out and pose so I had to pull him out of the tank. Trashed his colors but at least you get an idea of what he looks like. And please pardon the "Peru Black Spot" that he has. A feature common to see in wild Apistos out of Peru that does not show up in their offspring in my experience.

Male (please note the lack of black coloration on the leading edge of the ventral fins)

Female (please note the black leading edge on the ventral fins)

 

[apistodave]

Dave,

Don't worry about degrading the genetic quality of my fish! These guys will be just fine with your fish. But thank you for your concern. I'm nor sure how the discussion went from Ben asking if he had a male and female baenschi all the way to bashing the quality of my fish (which neither of you have at this point). Dave, please keep things civil before I get truly upset. The quality of your fish is not in question (and again...I'm not sure why the quality of my fish is being slammed). Only the question of the sex of the fish is being questioned. Personally I view that as a great opportunity for you, Dave, to share your vast experience and wisdom with keeping and working with the fish and teach the rest of us how to properly sex the fish by the same means you are using. You state it's a pair. OK. Why get upset about it? Time will quickly prove what sex the fish are. No need to get this upset about it and throw a fit. Just let the fish prove you right!

F30 Dave? Would that be generations removed from the first time the fish was exported? That might be close. A little high I think, maybe more like F20, but not out of the realm of possibility.

The fish Ben contacted me about are wild caught A. baenschi that were sent up by Mr. Panduro. I agree with you that the exact colors and to an extent marking will vary from collection point to collection point. I remember back in the early 1990's getting panduro and nijsseni in at the same time along with a third "species" of fish that looked to be an intermediate between the two other species! All wild caught fish and all exported seperetly from each other (each imported as it's own distinct fish).

Below are a few pictures of the baenschi stock I've been bringing in. The male would not come out and pose so I had to pull him out of the tank. Trashed his colors but at least you get an idea of what he looks like. And please pardon the "Peru Black Spot" that he has. A feature common to see in wild Apistos out of Peru that does not show up in their offspring in my experience.

Male (please note the lack of black coloration on the leading edge of the ventral fins)

Female (please note the black leading edge on the ventral fins)

Sure sexes look the same markings as I sent Ben--as for the black spot--thats melanoma from the sun--Skin Cancer--scientists even use fish to model skin cancer

Fish melanoma models have been used in studies of both spontaneous and induced melanoma formation. Genetic hybrids between platyfish and swordtails, different species of the genus Xiphophorus, have been studied since the 1920s to identify genetic determinants of pigmentation and melanoma formation. Recently, transgenesis has been used to develop zebrafish and medaka models for melanoma research. This review will provide a historical perspective on the use of fish models in melanoma research, and an updated summary of current and prospective studies using these unique experimental systems.

As for Ben, here is an E-mail he sent me right after he got the fish:


Hey Dave,



I got the Apistogramma baenschi Inka and they are sweet! Thanks bro. The male is chasing the female constantly and I'm thinking to get a few more females to cut her some slack. Would you sell me 2 females? If so, how much?



Thanks bro ...



Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: Apistodave <[email protected]>
To: Ben Balfour <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: AquaBid.com Auction Winner: fwapisto1334430501
Guy was obviously looking for some free fish...and obviously doesnt know that these fish are manogamous...

ANd Ben--you are welcome Bro

 

[apistodave]

Sure sexes look the same markings as I sent Ben--as for the black spot--thats melanoma from the sun--Skin Cancer--scientists even use fish to model skin cancer

Fish melanoma models have been used in studies of both spontaneous and induced melanoma formation. Genetic hybrids between platyfish and swordtails, different species of the genus Xiphophorus, have been studied since the 1920s to identify genetic determinants of pigmentation and melanoma formation. Recently, transgenesis has been used to develop zebrafish and medaka models for melanoma research. This review will provide a historical perspective on the use of fish models in melanoma research, and an updated summary of current and prospective studies using these unique experimental systems.

As for Ben, here is an E-mail he sent me right after he got the fish:


Hey Dave,



I got the Apistogramma baenschi Inka and they are sweet! Thanks bro. The male is chasing the female constantly and I'm thinking to get a few more females to cut her some slack. Would you sell me 2 females? If so, how much?



Thanks bro ...



Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: Apistodave <[email protected]>
To: Ben Balfour <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: AquaBid.com Auction Winner: fwapisto1334430501
obviously doesnt know that these fish are manogamous...Says they are a sweet pair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANd Ben--you are welcome Bro

 

[apistodave]

You really shouldnt be selling those fish Jeff, the stuff makes them susceptible to other diseases :
UVA is a carcinogen responsible for squamous cell carcinomas that also causes premature aging of the skin and suppresses the immune system. It's also possible, the authors note, that long-term chronic exposure to UVA can hasten the progression to malignancy of melanocytes in the skin that are already on the path to becoming melanoma.
Mitchell and colleagues tested the effects of UVA and ultraviolet B (UVB) light exposure in melanoma-prone fish hybrids that develop the disease spontaneously 15-20 percent of the time without exposure to UV light.
The scientists exposed a hybrid form of the genus Xiphophorus, more commonly known as platyfishes and swordtails, to either UVA or UVB daily between their fifth and 10th day of life. The fish were then scored for melanoma 14 months after exposure.

There is actually an interesting thread on the site here about the black spots:

http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/black-spots-on-crenicichla-compressiceps.8683/

One interesting comment in there---- In my case dark blotches were one of symptoms of deadly disease which has killed my A. baenschi(fishes which passed away first were fishes the most "black blotched") and A. sp. "Pebas"

 

[aquaticclarity]

You really shouldnt be selling those fish Jeff, the stuff makes them susceptible to other diseases :

Thanks for the info Dave. I'll be sure to tell my "pie balled" female white barlowi that she should have died a long time ago. She's had the spots since I received her-again a wild caught fish. And that was about 3 years ago. I guess if the fish don't know any better they don't follow the rules!

 

[apistodave]

My fish dont have these black blotches--because they are collected by a friend and not some native fisherman who doesnt care about the quality--only the money.

 

[apistodave]

Thanks for the info Dave. I'll be sure to tell my "pie balled" female white barlowi that she should have died a long time ago. She's had the spots since I received her-again a wild caught fish. And that was about 3 years ago. I guess if the fish don't know any better they don't follow the rules!

Read the thread

 

[aquaticclarity]

I read it Dave. What my baenschi has matches what the barlowi pictured in the thread has. Flat black blotches. What ever the compressiceps pictured has is something very different as the black spots protrude from the body of the fish and look to be much more then just coloration.

 

[aquaticclarity]

Check out this thread Dave: http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-d-please.11482/

Again, I personally believe it is a parasite (that needs additional hosts beyond fish) as I have NEVER had the spots transfer to other fish and have only seen it on wild caught Peru Apistos. Now my sampling is limited to a few thousand Apsitos from Peru over only a few years but I've had some fish with the spots in my own tanks and have never seen a shortened life or failed breeding because of it.

I have trouble with the idea of it being a "skin cancer" as Apistos just don't spend much time in the sun! But it's an interesting theory and one worth exploring.

 

[apistodave]

Sure Jeff--fish with black blotches--listen if you're fine with selling them--it's ok with me too.

 

[aquaticclarity]

Sure Jeff--fish with black blotches--listen if you're fine with selling them--it's ok with me too.

Oh thank goodness! I appreciate your seal of approval Dave. And who said anything about selling a fish with black blotches on it? Not me. The male baenschi pictured is my own personal stock. If it's melanoma caused by the sun then it won't spread to any other fish or be passed on to his offspring. If it's a parasite that has several hosts in it's life cycle it will also not spread to other fish or his offspring. Either way I don't see any issue.

Really though, I would like to hear more of your first hand personal experience with Apistos and melanoma. Or maybe you don't have any because the few wild fish you keep have been hand selected. But I really would like to see more pictures and read more about the subject. Maybe it's just my eyes but the pike cichlid in the thread you linked sure doesn't look like it has the same time of black spots as the Apisto in the same thread.

But back on topic if for but just a moment...

This thread started out with a customer of your's questioning the sex of the fish he received. He was even polite enough not to mention names but merely asked for the opinion of the people of this forum on the sexes of his two fish. Somehow that turned into you questioning the quality of my fish and you posting his personal information (full name and mailing address-which I blocked out at his request) And now you are claiming that I am selling cancer ridden fish to my customers. Dave, I have played nice so far as I respect what you have done with Apistos in the US hobby. But PLEASE stop with the attacks toward my fish and now toward me and my moral character. I do not want to start a fight with you but I am more the prepared to do so if need be.

I am more the open to discussing fish and the MANY different aspects of them but I do not want to turn this forum into a place to place personal attacks. You can choice who you sell fish to just like I can and we can both choose how we take care of those customers.

 

[apistodave]

Oh thank goodness! I appreciate your seal of approval Dave. And who said anything about selling a fish with black blotches on it? Not me. The male baenschi pictured is my own personal stock. If it's melanoma caused by the sun then it won't spread to any other fish or be passed on to his offspring. If it's a parasite that has several hosts in it's life cycle it will also not spread to other fish or his offspring. Either way I don't see any issue.

Really though, I would like to hear more of your first hand personal experience with Apistos and melanoma. Or maybe you don't have any because the few wild fish you keep have been hand selected. But I really would like to see more pictures and read more about the subject. Maybe it's just my eyes but the pike cichlid in the thread you linked sure doesn't look like it has the same time of black spots as the Apisto in the same thread.

But back on topic if for but just a moment...

This thread started out with a customer of your's questioning the sex of the fish he received. He was even polite enough not to mention names but merely asked for the opinion of the people of this forum on the sexes of his two fish. Somehow that turned into you questioning the quality of my fish and you posting his personal information (full name and mailing address-which I blocked out at his request) And now you are claiming that I am selling cancer ridden fish to my customers. Dave, I have played nice so far as I respect what you have done with Apistos in the US hobby. But PLEASE stop with the attacks toward my fish and now toward me and my moral character. I do not want to start a fight with you but I am more the prepared to do so if need be.

I am more the open to discussing fish and the MANY different aspects of them but I do not want to turn this forum into a place to place personal attacks. You can choice who you sell fish to just like I can and we can both choose how we take care of those customers.

I came in to this thread cause he E-mailed me personally, I said the fish were mine cause I back my fish 100%, why did you come in on it??? Are you the apisto world police??This particular customer, hasnt kept the fish for long, and doesnt really know what he wants--your jumping in here implies that I dont know how to sex these fish and you will make it all right--ie. sticking your nose in where it dont belong--I dont appreciate that. I'll repeat, I helped write the descrition of these fish and know them as well as anyone.. My business with my customers is my business, not yours.

Hey Dave,



I got the Apistogramma baenschi Inka and they are sweet! Thanks bro. The male is chasing the female constantly and I'm thinking to get a few more females to cut her some slack. Would you sell me 2 females? If so, how much?



Thanks bro ...



Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: Apistodave <[email protected]>
To: Ben Balfour <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 15, 2012 5:44 pm
Subject: Re: AquaBid.com Auction Winner: fwapisto1334430501

! Pqir—invoice sent



From: Ben Balfour

Sent:Saturday, April 14, 2012 4:55 PM

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: AquaBid.com Auction Winner: fwapisto1334430501



Hey bud, let me know what you think is best 1 pr, a harem, or whatever and I'll make payment. I'm gonna throw in a few extra bucks for a pretty pr Remember, I'm out of town and they cant ship till the end of the month. Also, let me know how I should make payment. I remember reading something in your post about Google. Anyway you want it, doesnt matter to me.



Ben well,

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: apistodave <[email protected]>
To: bbalfour68 <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, Apr 14, 2012 3:11 pm
Subject: AquaBid.com Auction Winner: fwapisto1334430501

Now--you go ahead and sling whatever it is you have to sling, I dont care.

 

[apistodave]

As for discussing--it is likely to be a subject in a future publication--I am checking on that--it's why I dont get involved in too many discussions down here that involve the fish.

 

[aquaticclarity]

Dave,

I responded to a questioned posted on an open forum. Before that thread was even started I had received an email from Ben with the same question. I responded to the email and then future emails (and then the forum post). I had no problem with you, Ben, or the fish in question. I was only responding to direct questions emailed to me and then posted similar info on the forum to share some info that wasn't covered in the original post.

I didn't get involved in the thread beyond a post about the tank measurements and one about the email conversation until you thought it important to insult the quality of my fish (first post on page 2 of this thread). Why do that Dave? Why insult my fish? Why insult my integrity later as to my judgment on what fish I sell? I did not become involved in any meaningful way until you started to insult me and my fish.

And as to the "fish police" comment...is that because as a moderator I XXXed out Ben's personal info at his request?

Dave, where did I say you do not know how to sex baenschi? I did not. I asked you to share how you are sexing them. I know what I look at to sex them but I respect your experience keeping Apistos and would love to know what you look at for sexing them. I don't know how that implies that I don't think you know how to sex them. But if it does please accept my apologies. But please share with us what you are looking at to sex the fish.

Yes, your business with your customers is your business. My business with my customers is my business. But in this case Ben contacted us both to purchase fish. He also asked me of my opinion of the sex of his fish. I gave that.. That is all. No insults. No questioning of your business practices. No questioning of your Apistogramma expriences. No questioning of you at all! Dave, you made this personal. Not me.

 

[apistodave]

I gave you my E-mail address a while back----why do this---I've also been in email contact about this problem and it sounds like he may have 2 male baenschi. These were young tank raised fish when he got them (not from me) but I'm waiting on pictures of the fish to confirm things.
In an open forum--why not E-mail me and ask WTF is going on?? After all you are tlking to someone who doesnt know the fish. Why not E-mail me and ask me what I think...

You took the wrong approach here..

 

[Northman]

Dave is right, I dont know much about Apistogramma identification or sexing. My only concern this past year was to know their proper water parameters and habitat. I stayed patient for a year and waited for what I considered to be the right time to buy fish. I just wanted to create a great living environment for them and to pick up a pair for breeding; I would love to experience that. In an email I sent to him (dave posted it above) I asked if I should get a pair or a harem because I wanted the best chance to obtain a breeding pair not because I am clueless, I was just looking for guidance from someone with experience. He also posted an email (above) where you can see I gave him extra money for "a pretty pair". That kinda proves I know/knew what I wanted. I never mentioned it to anyone and I didnt include it as "money lost" because he didn't ask for it; i offered and payed it. I knew what I wanted and continue to know, a breeding pair; 1 male and 1 female. Dave feels he sold me the product agreed upon and I will acquiesce. There is no further discussion regarding it. I dont want fish, money, or bad feelings over the deal.
In my correspondence with Jeff, he never once had anything bad to say about Dave. In fact, it was just the opposite. Dave was hardly even a part of our conversation; our dialog was mainly sexing what I had bought. I reached out to Jeff and he was good enough to take the time to help someone who is an Apisto novice try to figure out what sexes he had. Something just seemed off to me and I reached out to him and you (this forum). I want to thank Jeff for being a gentleman and kind to a novice.
Ben

 

[apistodave]

I--on the other hand am not a gentleman. I am an old stubborn crotchtey SOB, who likes to think he dont take s--- from anyone. I am on the other hand very intelligent and know a lot more than your average bear about apistogramma, which I live for. You are keeping these fish because myself and a few others have done our darndest to make them popular,Starting 22 years ago. I am also very modest........................................

 

[tuna]

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[/IMG]

These apistos were wild caught from Peru as adults and lived almost 4 more years and the fry never exhibited the spots.

 

[Mike Wise]

Do you want to know what I think? I think that it is time to close this post permanently. I'm probably guilty of starting some of the problem when I said I personally couldn't ID the fish from the photos (the truth). Both David & Jeff provide quality fish for the most part. I have no problems with either. This is my last post on this subject; I won't be checking it again.