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Newbie questions

gerald

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Wake Forest NC, USA
Hi all, I think that is probably unlikely in mainland Europe, they tend to be a lot more careful with potentially toxic metals than we are in the UK (or I dare say you are in the USA).

What are you talking about? Our President says we have the cleanest greenest nation on earth! Our environment is so clean we don't even need environmental regulations anymore! We're BIGLY green!

Another thought was that if the water is aged with peat etc then any metal ions will be complexed and much less available.I do this, but I suspect the OP's rain-water is too soft. cheers Darrel

Yes, that would be a problem. He may need to add some soil or Ca supplement to keep the Daphnia alive long enough to test for toxicity. There are some kinds of small Daphnids that i've seen in soft, acidic vernal pools in the NC Sandhills and Coastal plain region, but I don't know what they are.
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Our environment is so clean we don't even need environmental regulations anymore! We're BIGLY green!
One of the things that a lot of our more prominent Brexiteers are interested in is a bonfire of our environmental legislation ("aka:Getting rid of unnecessary red tape imposed on us by Europe").

In <"2014 we had a lot of flooding in the UK">, which led to demands for (and a lot of) river dredging and our government used as a pretext to change the law to allow land-owners to "clear out" ditches on their land without any input from the Environment Agency. This has led to a lot of fairly aggressive land drainage, and my prediction is: much more extensive flooding of towns and cities, fairly soon.
There are some kinds of small Daphnids that i've seen in soft, acidic vernal pools in the NC Sandhills and Coastal plain region, but I don't know what they are.
Collect your own might be an option, getting a name for them is a bit more problematic.

I used to have a large green tinged "Daphnia" (Cladoceran) Simocephalus vetulus, and that does well in softer water, but I don't think I have it anymore.

cheers Darrel
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
Hi all, Very true, plants are the thing that make water management easier. They should produce a jet of water if you have an uplift tube that ends above the surface, sponge filters are much more effective with an up-lift tube. Have a look at Mike's comments in <"10 gallon apisto setups">.

I like the look of the Czech type jetlifters that Stephan Tanner sells in the USA <"jetlifters - Swiss Tropicals"> (made in Germany by Beck & Harich).
I've just watched this video with Stephan Tanner. It is worth a watch. It was a suggestion after I'd seen the latest installment of <"Ted's Columbia diary">.


cheers Darrel
 

ButtNekkid

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5 Year Member
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315
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Finland

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I would only use the "head" of the Aquaball. I have great experiences about these filters.
Any other suggestions? Would something like this setup work?
I like both Aquaballs and the Eck Mattenfilters, and that should work fine. I used to use a similar set-up with Maxijet powerheads (I'd also recommend these).

Personally I like the PPI20 foam for these, because I keep heavily planted tanks I'm not interested in any potential denitrification (the plants deal with the NO3) that you might get with finer sponges.

cheers Darrel
 

ButtNekkid

Active Member
5 Year Member
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315
Location
Finland
Hi all,
Some people recommend letting the first few litres of water run away (you can get diverters that do this) or <"diverters with filters">, but I've never bothered.

I'd be pretty confident that your new roof is safe, but you can always check with the TDS meter that nothing is dissolving from the roof.

cheers Darrel

Hi,

I collected more rainwater today. It was 8 µS. It rained heavily.
What is leaching from peat, since I filtered my rainwater through peat for 48 hours and it it 23 µS?
My peatmix with straight tapwater (1 GH and 4 KH) is 46 µS.
 

Tom C

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582
Location
Norway
...Personally I like the PPI20 foam for these, because I keep heavily planted tanks I'm not interested in any potential denitrification (the plants deal with the NO3) that you might get with finer sponges.
I would appreciate if you would elaborate on this a bit, Darrel!
 

ButtNekkid

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5 Year Member
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315
Location
Finland
Foam with 20 pores per inch (ppi) is fairly coarse, so it's less likely to develop low-flow anaerobic zones (where bacterial denitrification may occur) compared with finer-cell foam (greater ppi).

So this size won´t suck up fish or shrimp fry?
 

Tom C

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5 Year Member
Messages
582
Location
Norway
Foam with 20 pores per inch (ppi) is fairly coarse, so it's less likely to develop low-flow anaerobic zones (where bacterial denitrification may occur) compared with finer-cell foam (greater ppi).
Thank you, Gerald!
Would you say that denitrification might occur in such an amount that people with little or no plants in their aquariums could rely on denitrification instead of waterchanges to reduce the level of NO3?
As denitrification can leak N2O, an ozone-depleting gas that can have influence on global warming, could we expect to hear that "Aquarists are responsible for the global warming!"? :eek:
(Don't mention this for your president, Gerald!)

(Don't accuse me: I have coarse foam in my filters, and a thick layer of floating plants in most of my tanks.):)

When the oxygen level is reduced, would the Archaea responsible for nitrification be able to convert to denitrification,
or are there other microorganisms that should be present for this to occur?
And if so, do we have these organisms in all our filters?
 

gerald

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5 Year Member
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1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
Wastewater treatment plants that use denitrification (Tertiary Treatment) need to carefully balance flow in the treatment chamber to keep the dissolved oxygen level within the range where denitrifying bacteria & archaea can operate. It's probably not a practical technology for a freshwater aquarium unless you don't mind investing a lot of time and money to monitor and control the process. It may occur on its own in large-volume low-flow filters (undergravel, mattenfilter, canister, etc) but I wouldn't want to rely on it. If NO3 is not increasing in a plant-free tank, then denitrification may be the reason, but if you quit changing water then I would at least keep testing NO3 to make sure! (or use plants ... much easier and reliable).
 

dw1305

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5 Year Member
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2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,.
Foam with 20 pores per inch (ppi) is fairly coarse, so it's less likely to develop low-flow anaerobic zones (where bacterial denitrification may occur) compared with finer-cell foam (greater ppi).
Yes, that is it.
Would you say that denitrification might occur in such an amount that people with little or no plants in their aquariums could rely on denitrification instead of waterchanges to reduce the level of NO3?
That was Diana Walstad's original premise, but while it works for NO3, my experience is that fish health is definitely improved by some water changes.
When the oxygen level is reduced, would the Archaea responsible for nitrification be able to convert to denitrification,or are there other microorganisms that should be present for this to occur?
And if so, do we have these organisms in all our filters?
I think some of the nitrifying Archaea are "facultative anaerobes", there is a summary in <"Nitrification - Ward 2015">.
Wastewater treatment plants that use denitrification (Tertiary Treatment) need to carefully balance flow in the treatment chamber to keep the dissolved oxygen level within the range where denitrifying bacteria & archaea can operate. It's probably not a practical technology for a freshwater aquarium unless you don't mind investing a lot of time and money to monitor and control the process. It may occur on its own in large-volume low-flow filters (undergravel, mattenfilter, canister, etc) but I wouldn't want to rely on it.
That is what I think as well, you definitely can have simultaneous nitrification and denitrification and if you have a relatively undisturbed substrate (with growing plant roots) that is exactly what you've got. An established mattenfilter can also supply this safely, because it has a large surface exposed to oxygen rich water, but in a sealed vessel (like a canister filter) it is a recipe for disaster.

cheers Darrel
 

ButtNekkid

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5 Year Member
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315
Location
Finland
Hi,

Stop hijacking my thread you nincompoops!

So... Any PPI will stop fish fry and shrimps from sucking in to the filter?
 

dw1305

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Messages
2,755
Location
Wiltshire UK
Hi all,
I collected more rainwater today. It was 8 µS. It rained heavily.What is leaching from peat, since I filtered my rainwater through peat for 48 hours and it it 23 µS? My peatmix with straight tapwater (1 GH and 4 KH) is 46 µS.
The rain-water is just extremely pure and really is H2O, most people would struggle to get water of that quality from an RO unit. If this water was collected from the "new" roof? the roof is definitely OK.

Although the 23 and 46 micro S values seem a lot higher than the initial 8 micro S, they are all really small values. As an idea of how few ions you've added, a 10 μS/cm rise in conductivity is equivalent to about 6.4 mg of NaCl per litre of water, and a teaspoon of salt weighs about 6g (6000 milligrams). So your ~40 microS rise is equivalent to adding 1/250 of a tea spoon of NaCl (which will form 1:1 Na+ and Cl- ions) to a litre of water, or 1 teaspoon of salt to 250 litres of water.

Pure H2O is an efficient solvent (it doesn't have any ions present), and it will pick up ions from the peat. Although nearly all the cation exchange sites in the sphagnum peat are filled with H+ ions, it will have a minimal amount of K+, Ca++ etc ions present and these have gone into solution.
So... Any PPI will stop fish fry and shrimps from sucking in to the filter?
Yes, pretty much. PPI20 is definitely OK.

Often when people put sponge pre-filters on powerful canister filters they are woefully inadequate in volume, and they have problems with fry getting stuck to them, or the sponge collapsing under pressure if they use finer sponge. This isn't a problem with an HMF.

cheers Darrel
 

ButtNekkid

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
315
Location
Finland
Hi all,The rain-water is just extremely pure and really is H2O, most people would struggle to get water of that quality from an RO unit. If this water was collected from the "new" roof? the roof is definitely OK.

It is from the new roof. I ´ve taken the habit of waiting 10 minutes before collecting and always checking the conductivity.

Yesterday I made the first water change with peat filtered rainwater and everything seems to be ok.
 

ButtNekkid

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
315
Location
Finland
Hi,

I was informed on another forum that birds pooping on the roof might be a problem when collecting rainwater?
Because the poop might have diseases if the birds eat fish?
 

gerald

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5 Year Member
Messages
1,491
Location
Wake Forest NC, USA
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable concern, especially if you're in the business of selling R.O. systems. ;) I dont ever recall seeing a heron, kingfisher, cormorant, or osprey on my roof (though you might if you live closer to open water), and even if fish parasites in bird poop did fall on the roof and survive, they cannot spread from fish to fish in your aquariums unless you also have fish-eating birds in your house. The risk is very low compared with all the other potential disease sources.
 

ButtNekkid

Active Member
5 Year Member
Messages
315
Location
Finland
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable concern, especially if you're in the business of selling R.O. systems. ;) I dont ever recall seeing a heron, kingfisher, cormorant, or osprey on my roof (though you might if you live closer to open water), and even if fish parasites in bird poop did fall on the roof and survive, they cannot spread from fish to fish in your aquariums unless you also have fish-eating birds in your house. The risk is very low compared with all the other potential disease sources.

Hi,

We do live by the lake. But I´ve never seen any birds on the roof.
 

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