To RO or not to RO .... that is the question!

[BIG_CICHLID]

Hello! I keep Aggies, Rams, Bolivian Rams and Viejitas amongst some angels and a large shoal of cardinal tetras (about 50). I have bad tap water as you can see:
Tap water: Nitrate 100 / Nitrite 0 / GH(TH) 21d / KH (TAC) 15d / PH 8.2

The tank was cycling a few weeks back and the readings were:
Aquarium: Nitrate 100 / Nitrite 5 / GH(TH) 21d / KH (TAC) 15d / PH 8.2

Needless to say those water parameters are unacceptable for dwarfs,cardinals and angels. So, I invested in an RO unit and it's product water is:
RO water: Nitrate 5 / Nitrite 0 / GH(TH) 6d / KH (TAC) 3d / PH 6.4

Now, I've slowly acclimatised my fish with small and frequent water changes with straight RO water and this morning my aquarium water was:
Aquarium: Nitrate 5ppm / Nitrite 0 / GH 6d / KH 4d / PH 7.0

Now, I shall carry on with straight RO water changes until my aquarium water is in parallel to my RO water, however, is too much of a good thing bad? Should I be adding in a little tap water or what to add in some of the things the RO strips out? OR just straight RO??

BC

 

[fishgeek]

the fact your kh and gH are not 0 tells me that your r/o is not stripping everything and i would go with straight r/o

i have hard water aswell and use straight r/o even though my test kits measure zero for kh gh in my r/o
occasionally i will add a little tap, though i would say that 99% is r/o in my tanks

andrew

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi there,

All my tanks use 100% RO that has been cycled for a minimum of 24 hours through irish moss peat. This works with everything from the Apisto's through to my discus.

Andrew

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

Fishgeek, I see you're in London, I'm in Suffolk, so our water must be very similar. RUBBISH! I will carry on with straight RO then! What do you keep anyway? Breed any? Looking for something nice to add to my display tank at work!

BC

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

Hi there,

All my tanks use 100% RO that has been cycled for a minimum of 24 hours through irish moss peat. This works with everything from the Apisto's through to my discus.

Andrew

Have you tested your RO product water and then your water after peat moss?? What were/are the results?

BC

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi there,

Conditioned water runs at GH > 1, KH > not detectable, pH > ~5.5

In a couple of the tanks (bog wood stocked) the pH drops to about 5.

Given the hardness stats above, I've never checked the water straight from the RO unit. For the pH on the RO water, I've never tested it (chemistry training kicks in), please see my explanation below:

Distilled/RO/deionised water does not have a pH value on the basis that all of the ions have been removed if the process has been effective. Therefore a pH meter is effectively trying to measure something that does not exist (or is present at very low levels), and minute changes in the dissolved gases (particularily CO2) can give large variations in the readings obtained.

Andrew

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

Distilled/RO/deionised water does not have a pH value on the basis that all of the ions have been removed if the process has been effective. Therefore a pH meter is effectively trying to measure something that does not exist (or is present at very low levels), and minute changes in the dissolved gases (particularily CO2) can give large variations in the readings obtained.

Andrew

OK! Teach'..................... School me on Ions please!

BC

 

[tjudy]

However... tracking pH changes in RO water can provide a warning for when the system is not operating effectively. A pH meter is handy for this, and takes nothing more than a dip and glance.

The system that is not removing all the GH and KH... do you use deionization resins? Does the water go through a house-hold water softener before going through the RO unit? My water here in WI is similar to your tap water, but I can get 0KH 0GH and pH6.8 from my system only if I use water from the water softener (which replaces KH with GH, and the salts are easier to remove than carbonates).

 

[fishgeek]

big cichlid
i have sutton and east surrey water supply, i think or is that the sewage company?!

anyway water through my r/o di come's out reading nothing on kH gH and has still very alkaline readings(though see above warning on pH in r/o)
i run the r/o into a water butt with peat moss in
dropping pH (by pH meter still) from 8ish to 6ish

i have aggassizi, cacatoides,biteaniata,ermenopyge,steel blue and altispinosa in tanks at presnet

growing out a few bitaeniata, ermenopyge and steel blue at present and have 9mth old altispinosa about from last time i bred them

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi BC,

The easiest explanation in this scenario > the ions removed are the chemical compounds giving rise to the hardness of the water (carbonates, chlorides etc). These ions have an 'electrical charge' associated with them and this is what your pH meter is detecting. With RO water you have removed all the ions so their is nothing to measure.

Just to add to Andrew's post, fry growing on at present in my tanks using the RO/peat water include cacatuoides, baenschi, pertensis, eremnopyge, panduro and bitaeniata (all from wild caught parents).

Andrew

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

The system that is not removing all the GH and KH... do you use deionization resins? Does the water go through a house-hold water softener before going through the RO unit? My water here in WI is similar to your tap water, but I can get 0KH 0GH and pH6.8 from my system only if I use water from the water softener (which replaces KH with GH, and the salts are easier to remove than carbonates).

Yes TJudy, I do have a deionization unit on my RO. It's a 4 stage unit. Firstly, it goes through a 5 micron sediment filter (something to do with coconut) then is goes through a carbon (activated??) filter, then through the RO membrane and then through the deionizer. There is no softening before the RO on my setup. Do you suggest it?

Also, by reading the instructions on my RO, it tells me to test for TDS or something similar which tests the conductivity in the water. Is this the best way to test your RO's product water?

BC

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

big cichlid
i have sutton and east surrey water supply, i think or is that the sewage company?!

anyway water through my r/o di come's out reading nothing on kH gH and has still very alkaline readings(though see above warning on pH in r/o)
i run the r/o into a water butt with peat moss in
dropping pH (by pH meter still) from 8ish to 6ish

i have aggassizi, cacatoides,biteaniata,ermenopyge,steel blue and altispinosa in tanks at presnet

growing out a few bitaeniata, ermenopyge and steel blue at present and have 9mth old altispinosa about from last time i bred them

I think we definetely have different suppliers, however, I'm betting our tapwater is VERY similar. Seems as if the Southeast is very hard and alkaline off the tap. Don't know about the rest of the UK though!??????????????? Perhaps we'll have to hook up if you sell any of your fishes. Still early days on my Apisto experience. I'm a guapote man. I used to breed several of the larger C. Americans. Had to give up fishkeeping for a few years do to housemoves. But, I've got a tank at work now with some apistos in it.

I find it strange to have your PH so high after the RO cycle. Seems like I'm not grasping something here! Even if the ions that need to be present for a true reading, aren't present, then surely the ones that are there give an accurate reading of the few that are??????????????????????????

BC

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

Hi BC,

The easiest explanation in this scenario > the ions removed are the chemical compounds giving rise to the hardness of the water (carbonates, chlorides etc). These ions have an 'electrical charge' associated with them and this is what your pH meter is detecting. With RO water you have removed all the ions so their is nothing to measure.
/QUOTE]

Thanks Andrew, that sounds very simple and I understand what you are saying completely. What I can't get my head around is, what exactly are test kits/meters reading then? I mean, I've been slowing taking the PH down on my apisto setup and the water keeps getting softer and more acidic. Are these readings wrong????????????????????

BC

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

OH! Thanks everyone for your help thus far!

BC

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi BC,

Moving slightly out of my comfort zone now (I'm a microbiologist with a bit of chemistry from my degree a good few years back).

Soft acidic water is correct, the brutal way to put it would be:

Soft water > acidic
Hard water > alkaline

Have a look at this article from the Krib, hopefully it may lead to enightenment!!! (so I'm off to read it myself....):

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

I think the key thing to remember is that once you put your pure water into the tank with fish and decor, Ions will will start to leach back into the water (from the food, the decor, the fish etc).

Andrew

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

Thanks! Andy!

I suppose my next question is, soft and acidic fishes by nature that are kept and bred in hard alkaline water............................ are they best kept in soft or hard conditions. The reason I'm asking, as I am dropping the KH, GH and PH in my tank (slowly mind you), I am beginning to lose my viejitas. I've had to pull my large male and a female out because their mouthes are open and cannot close, also, the males lips are eroding. I assume it's mouthrot and have began a course of Melafix in the hospital tank. TIPS, thoughts??

BC

 

[fishgeek]

so strnage you say that , i purchased 4 viejieta recently . they came in a bag with very high ec water, the distributor said they have soft water n there locality and so add coral sand to the system to keep the kH from plummeting and ph from dropping

the fish looked very healthy and have slowly died
i have very soft water in the QT tank i have had them in
symptoms were intially hanging at surface(non specific)
last one to fight has shown most signs moth that can not close almost pointed at centre of bottom lip and increased operculae movement
intially i thought the mouth was just puffing

all fish that have passesd have had good colour, no external lesions good belly size and were intially feeding
in the same tank are 2 guppy fry that i missed when emptying tank
and a wild caught bitaeniata that came from the same distributor, it has no problems at all!!!

strange
andrew

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi BC,

Can't comment any more on the viejieta than the other Andrew has said already.

With regards what hardness to keep them in, my initial thought is that they should start off in water as close as possible to their source (whether that's the wild or tank bred conditions). There shouldn't be any problems acclimatising them to new conditions though as long as this is done over an extended period of time, as to how long that is though......

Andrew

 

[BIG_CICHLID]

With regards what hardness to keep them in, my initial thought is that they should start off in water as close as possible to their source (whether that's the wild or tank bred conditions). There shouldn't be any problems acclimatising them to new conditions though as long as this is done over an extended period of time, as to how long that is though......

Andrew

Andrew, I was thinking more along the lines of if they should be kept in hard and alkaline just the same as at the LFS or maybe they came in softwater from breeder (most likely). It's hard telling. I suppose you need to leave the fish at the LFS for a couple weeks and leave them to acclimatise to their conditions, then try to duplicate them for this. How do most people acclimate their fish? Do you have several tanks setup? How long does the acclimation need to be drug out for?

BC

 

[a.d.wood]

Hi BC,

I only have the 1 water type here for all the South Americans (100%RO filtered through Peat). All the fish that come into the fish house so far are wild caught (currently Peru or Brazil) direct from the Amazon (or which ever tributary they were caught in). With the apisto's, they come individually bagged (in small bags), so all I do is float the bags for 20 to 30 minutes to let the temperature equilibrate, then empty the fish (water as well) into the stock tank.

For any fish that come in bigger bags, the equilibration will probably stretch out over an hour or 2 slowly adding more of the tank water to the bag.

I think for the most though my water is in a similar ball park to what they came out of when they were caught

I've never checked the hardness of the water the fish come in in (I have a shipment coming in next Tuesday though so there's no excuse now!!). For the fish that I sell, I know, for most of them the fish will be going into harder water than what they are currently in (mainly the shops), as to the private individuals, I give the water stats when we talk through the fish and they normally aim to get close to my stats for when the fish arrive, I assume they then acclimatise the fish back to their normal water stats (as to how long that takes, I've never asked, possibly just through their standard water change regime).

I think for the majority, acclimitisation is in hours rather than days.

Andrew