Should I get a pair or a single male?

[Thanuhrei]

I’m planning a 20 gal with Agassizii and pencils. I originally wanted a male/female pair, since the brooding behavior is cool to me. But I’ve realized that I don’t have the resources needed for serious breeding. I don’t have room for a separate fry/grow out tank. So I’d like some advice from people who have more experience to determine whether I should stick with the pair or just get a single male instead.

Which of these is right?

Situation A: Apistos will breed like rabbits as long as you put a male and female together. I will definitely need multiple other tanks if I get a pair and it will be a big operation. I will be better off with just a single male.

Situation B: Apistos other than cacatuoides aren’t /that/ easy to breed. If I get a pair, they will have brooding behavior and might lay eggs every now and then, but it will be rare if I get babies, and I can probably deal with that.

Situation C: A male and a female in a tank together that /aren’t/ breeding will be aggressive to each other, and I will be better off with just a single male.

This will be in a 20 long with no other fish except a school of 8-10 beckfordi pencils (I will provide adequate floating plants for them to hide in). I am also open to considering apisto species other than agassizii, I just want something other than cacatuoides and I like the ones with red on them. My tap water has a pH of 6.8 and a hardness of 40ppm. I plan to treat the water with botanicals so that might change the pH.

 

[MacZ]

Situation C: A male and a female in a tank together that /aren’t/ breeding will be aggressive to each other, and I will be better off with just a single male.

That one. If you don't want to breed and have neither fry predators nor a second tank to separate the fish when aggression boils too high, a single male in a display tank is your best option.

My tap water has a pH of 6.8 and a hardness of 40ppm. I plan to treat the water with botanicals so that might change the pH.

Botanicals will have minimal impact and only longterm effects. Nevertheless very advisable.

 

[Mike Wise]

Truthfully A, B, and C are true - depending on the species. If you don't want fry then use the tank as a display tank with only 1 colorful male apisto.

 

[Thanuhrei]

Still coming back to this question. Would it be that bad if I just had a pair but let them eat the babies? Or had fry predators? I had been considering neons instead of pencils for a while anyway. If any fry did survive, I could also pretty easily put them in my (peaceful and currently very understocked) community tank until they’re ready to give to LFS.

 

[Mike Wise]

Sure. Whatever floats your boat. Just realize that this will cause stress for members of the tank. Stress is the primary cause of disease.

 

[anewbie]

My question is why have a female if you don't want to raise at least a few frys ?

 

[Thanuhrei]

I am drawn to dwarf cichlids because of their brooding behavior. I want to watch the male and female court and I want to watch them guard their eggs and raise their young. I would love to CASUALLY breed these fish, i.e. own a male and female, get excited when they have babies, and maybe sometimes save a few and raise them in the community tank until they are ready to sell to LFS.


What I do NOT want is a commercial breeding operation. I do not have the space, time, or money to run a fry tank AND a grow-out tank AND individual tanks for each adult male and female AND find buyers for all the fish. I have the space, time, and money for these two fish tanks in my bedroom, and if I get another it will be (a) after this tank is long established, and (b) because I want to keep different kind of fish from the other two tanks.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I think it will be OK for a while, some people do this. You may have the occasional fry survive predation and become juveniles, but they will eventually become sexually mature (at an unsellably small size) and it will become a problem. You could choose to give them away at that point. But you probably won't have powerfed the fry, which would not be easy in this setup. So growth in the offspring will likely be stunted.

In addition to what Mike said about it being stressful for the whole tank, in ideal conditions the apistos will breed every few weeks. This is energetically expensive for the female, so she will age faster. For that reason, I typically separate the male to his own small community tank after breeding a couple times. And I don't reintroduce unless I want them to breed,

What you desire is a common impulse, so I understand why you want to do it. It is possible, yes. But it's not optimal. You have to decide what's more important to you. Long term health of the fish, or enjoyment of certain aspects of their behavior. It's cute to see these little guys in the tank, and watch them grow up. But it's like having a litter of kittens or puppies. At some point, they have to go.

 

[MacZ]

What I do NOT want is a commercial breeding operation. I do not have the space, time, or money to run a fry tank AND a grow-out tank AND individual tanks for each adult male and female AND find buyers for all the fish. I have the space, time, and money for these two fish tanks in my bedroom, and if I get another it will be (a) after this tank is long established, and (b) because I want to keep different kind of fish from the other two tanks.

While I can understand your reason you like these fish as any other of us. BUT: I have to agree with Ben, problems will heap up over time. Spare yourself and the fish the drama, get a single male for a display and enjoy all the other aspects of behaviour like foraging and displaying (a small mirror is great for this).

 

[Thanuhrei]

If I get a single male instead of a breeding pair, does that open up my tank mate options more? Would it get along well with neons? Could I possibly keep bottom dwellers like otos?

 

[MacZ]

Of course it would get along with other fish. It has no brood to protect.

Otos are not bottomdwellers and a problematic thing by themselves. Almost exclusively wild caught feeding spezialists that come to stores almost starved to death and usually with a survival rate under 50%. Unless the tank is sizable (100cm), very well seasoned (running 10months +) and you don't clean surfaces often, I'd rather go for something different.

Whether you have one or two Apistogramma doesn't change stocking options really, those are mostly connected to water parameters, tank dimensions and other factors.

 

[Thanuhrei]

I already have otocinclus in my other tank and have had success with them

 

[MacZ]

Good. Still, many batches have 100% losses.

 

[Ben Rhau]

When I've kept my male in his "bachelor" tank apart from the female, he got along totally fine with pencil fish and corys. Tetras would be fine also.

Otocinclus are not an issue compatibiity-wise. I tend to agree with Mac that putting them in a brand new tank may yield mixed results. I've never gotten them to eat anything other than algae. Mine haven't gone for blanched vegetables, etc. If you can successfully do that, I think it's reasonable to try. They are quite efficient at eating algae, so I wouldn't advise more than 2 or 3 in a 20 gallon tank unless there is another clear food source.

I'm curious if you want otos because you think they're cool (they are). Or because they're good algae eaters (a common reason people keep them). If it's the latter, I generally don't think it's a great idea to control algae with animals. When algae are out of control, that indicates an imbalance in your tank. In a well balanced tank with healthy plants and the right amount of light (not too much), algae are usually not a problem.

 

[Thanuhrei]

Like I said, I am already familiar with keeping otos and have had a group in my other tank for about 6 months. I know not put them in a brand-new tank. I keep forgetting that y’all aren’t familiar with my prior experience, since I usually use the [Tropical Fish Forum], but I’m not a complete newbie.

The main intent of my question was this: I got the impression that tankmate options are kinda limited in breeding 20 gallon, since there isn’t a ton of room to hide from the couple’s aggression. It seems like, if I take that route, my best bet would be to limit tankmates to only a school of pencils. Therefore, if a bachelor male tank would have less aggression and subsequently more options for tankmates, that would be an appealing reason for me to choose one over the other. Specifically, if keeping a bachelor allows me to pick neons over pencilfish, that’s a plus to me. The otocinclus were an afterthought, since I have them in my community tank, but was thinking it would be cool to keep them in a more biotope-accurate tank. I assumed they wouldn’t do well in a breeding tank, since that’s what I’d heard about Cories and plecos.

 

[Ben Rhau]

Yeah sorry about that. Wasn't sure about your plans. It opens up the options more for sure.

I would put in a plug for pencil fish if you haven't kept them before. Their behavior is pretty different from neons and I think theyr'e really interesting.

 

[Thanuhrei]

This isn’t the perfect place to post it, but I don’t have a journal thread yet so I thought I’d share with y’all the progress I made today!
I’ve added a black background, leaves, and a nice piece of driftwood to the tank (currently still floating). I also transferred a crypt from my other tank just to see if it would grow; I don’t have a real light for this tank yet. You can also see I have a sponge from my HOB wedges near the sponge filter in the hopes of seeding it. I’ve been going thru the motions of a fish less cycle, although I don’t know exactly where in the process I am bc I’m out of test strips at the moment.

While I was out buying the driftwood, I managed to snag a conversation with the owner of the LFS, who says that he can get some Agassizii in for me.

I’ve resigned myself to a bachelor male; as for dither fish I’m still researching pencils vs neons. As for additional decor, I plan to get some tiger lotus and maybe Java fern on the bottom and water sprite as a floater; LFS carries all of these but I didn’t buy any today. I’d also like to have more general sticks and twigs in the tank. The ones in the LFS weren’t natural-looking enough for my taste so I’ll probably just collect some outside at some point (and properly sanitize them of course).

This is way down the road, but I keep thinking that what would really love that big piece of driftwood… is a bristlenose pleco. Could I keep one with apistogramma or would they squabble too much?

 

[Thanuhrei]

I also wanted to get y’all’s opinion on a question I’ve raised on the other forum: my house stays between 65-76 (depending on season) year round, 68-72 for most of that. I know that a lot of these fish come from shaded streams that aren’t as hot as we think they are; do you think I could keep an apisto without a tank heater under these conditions?

 

[MacZ]

My apologies for assuming less experience than you have, we have to deal with lots of complete beginners here lately and you start to expect this right away.

Going backwards in your post: Unheated is only ok for A. borellii (wc and tankbrad) and partially for A. trifasciata (rather wc than tankbred). Maayybee also for some of the species from the foothills of the Andes but I'm not so sure right now. Pretty much all other commercially available species, domestic and wild forms alike do best with constant 24-26°C. even the shaded creeks are still mostly in equatorial regions, it's warm there, direct sunlight or not.

As for sticks and leaf litter: You don't have to sanitize the stuff. Most things that could be on them will die off underwater anyway. More important: Do not collect in city areas like parks (herbicides and pesticides), also stay away from roadsides (general pollution) and the direct surroundings of agriculture (all the -cides plus fertilizers).
Just wash the stuff properly with clear hot water and to keep the leaf litter good for months to come dry it thoroughly and store it in plastic bags or boxes.
To make the stuff sink immediately pour near-boiling water over it and let it steep until it's cool enough to add to the tank.

You can add quite a lot in the beginning before adding fish, this will provide the necessary nitrogen to get the tank going. Too much at once can cause oxygen depletion, so after adding fish keep it to a handful of leaves every few weeks. Always keep a stash of leaf litter to add more. Leave the remains of older leaves to form a healthy layer of mulm. This is essential for such a tank's stability.
On the long run I'd consider using rain or RO water as source water.

As for the tankmates: With a single male all kinds of characins and pencil fish are allright to choose. Just a question of taste.

Concerning plants: Besides the Nymphaea I recommend Hydrocotyle. Just let it float, it will expand quickly and spend a lot cover to the fish.

Hope this helps.

 

[Mike Wise]

Since you are considering an unheated aquarium, you need to also consider the temperature requirements of all of the fish in the community, not just the apisto.