sexing my new A. borellii

[tigger101023]

Newbie alert! I have been to lots of other cichlid forums, but this is my first time posting here.

I have some not-great pictures of my 3 new apistos. 1-1.25" if I had to guess. I asked the guy at the LFS for 1 m/2 f, but I have no clue myself if that's what I got. There's some chasing going on and they all have that rounded juvenile tail to me. I was hoping that more experienced eyes might know better. And if the pics are too bad, I'll try again.

Apisto 1

Apisto 2

Apisto 3

 

[tigger101023]

I can't believe I didn't notice it before now, but I'm finally seeing that all of them have blue or bluish-green markings on their heads. they were so pale last week when I got them that I didn't see it. Is it possible to have blue on them without them being these all-male steel blues?



PS - If they are all males and I can't take them back to the LFS, what's the minimum size tank I can keep them in together over the long-term? I doubt 3 males will last in a 12 gal for that long.

 

[Eric C.]

Hey tigger, welcome to the forum. I was the one that told you over in the cichlid forum that I thought you had all males. Looking again at the pictures I still believe that to be true. As I said before I'm no expert so hopefully someone with better knowledge will chime in and give you their opinion.

 

[tigger101023]

Hey tigger, welcome to the forum. I was the one that told you over in the cichlid forum that I thought you had all males. Looking again at the pictures I still believe that to be true. As I said before I'm no expert so hopefully someone with better knowledge will chime in and give you their opinion.

Thanks, I hope you're not offended. I figure the more help I can get, the better. The blue tells me that you were probably right.

 

[Eric C.]

I'm in no way offended. I myself often ask the same question on several different forums. Getting input from different sources is never a bad thing. :biggrin:

 

[aquaticclarity]

Sorry, but they look like steel blues to me. But better pictures would be needed to figure out if they are all males or not as females often have a blue color to them.

Jeff

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree with Eric, they all look like males. This isn't unusual since Jeff is correct, too. This is not A. borellii, but A. sp. Steel-blue, which often arrive as all males (and as "A. borellii"). There is a chance that you might have a female in the group, but better photos are needed.

 

[steel blues]

Despite my screen name, this steel blue epidemic is making me crazy. They are always listed as A. borelli, A. agasizzi, or simply Apisto. There's got to be a major wakeup to all of these merchants.

 

[Mike Wise]

You - all of us - need to tell the LFS owners. If he doesn't believe you, just show him a book with a picture of Steel-blue. Don't be too hard on the shop. They can't be experts on every fish, especially the rare ones like apistos. They rely on their suppliers to supply the correctly named fish. With Steel-blues this is very rare.

 

[tjudy]

Once upon a time there used to be a few different apistos available regularly to shops, and they were affordable. One thing that the increased demand for apistos has done is cause the value of the fish to go up, and the stores now have to pay more. I used to buy wild A. nijsseni for $2.50 each and sell them in my store for $14.99 a pair. The last time I saw wild A. nijsseni in a store they wanted $24.99 for the pair, and were not selling them. Steel blues are sold at a lower price, and stores can sell them... since the customers buy steel blues the stores buy more of those and less of the cool stuff, so the wholesalers stop getting the cool stuff. The net result is that there are fewer wild-type apistos for sale in stores.

I want to know where they are all going. Asia? Europe? Anyone at all inte h USA importing wild apistos like Neil used to?

 

[dheideman]

Once upon a time there used to be a few different apistos available regularly to shops, and they were affordable. One thing that the increased demand for apistos has done is cause the value of the fish to go up, and the stores now have to pay more. I used to buy wild A. nijsseni for $2.50 each and sell them in my store for $14.99 a pair. The last time I saw wild A. nijsseni in a store they wanted $24.99 for the pair, and were not selling them. Steel blues are sold at a lower price, and stores can sell them... since the customers buy steel blues the stores buy more of those and less of the cool stuff, so the wholesalers stop getting the cool stuff. The net result is that there are fewer wild-type apistos for sale in stores.

I want to know where they are all going. Asia? Europe? Anyone at all inte h USA importing wild apistos like Neil used to?

I know Jim Ellenberger from Mainly Cichlids over here in California gets in wild apistos from time to time (although he's really more of an African cichlid guy, himself). He gets some from other wholesalers (particularly Oliver Lucanus at Below Water, but he does quite a bit of direct importing, too, and has all the paperwork to do so. He's gotten his hands on true borelli several times in the past year, mostly captive bred, but I believe at least one batch was wild caught. (He's going to the ACA this year, and taking fish, btw, so bug him if you're looking for something and he can probably bring it.)

However, I work for a LFS (different one, Jim pretty much does business on his own), and unless we go through him, our access to apistos is pretty terrible. Week after week, from two different wholesalers the only options are two or three strains of cacatuoides, the occasional shoddy nijsseni (never in good shape), and the omnipresent "borelli"--which of course aren't, they're sp. steel-blues. (Thankfully, my boss knows the difference, and never stocks the steel-blues.) VERY rarely, a macmasteri shows up, and last month we got steindachneri for the first time ever. But there really is painfully little variety available to the LFS's, to pass on to the customers.

 

[Mike Wise]

There are several on-line sellers of wild Peruvian apistos. Some are members of this forum. Peruvian exporters are relatively easy to find. It is the Brazilian and Colombian suppliers that don't seem to ship to the US.

 

[Regulatorocks]

i believe i have also fallen into the Steel Blue trap. there is only one store that has apistograms around me, and they are always marked A. Borelli and are found scattered (never more than 4 stocked) in tetra holding tanks for sale.

i bought one male, then attempted to buy what i thought were females. they are definately steel blues because they have heavy blue markings on their face areas, and one of them is even tinted blue. i believe i have one dominant male, 1 subdominant male, and 1 female. they alpha male chases both around contineusly. here are some pics (sorry for the blurryness)

there also might be a chance the alpha might be a borelli, and the two fish i bought after that were steel blues

 

[beleg]

Second one does look like female.

 

[aquaticclarity]

If the first photo of the last set you posted is the dominant fish he's a steel blue. The caudal peduncle spot, big black spot right before the tail, is that of a steel blue. A. borelli don't get that spot.

Jeff

 

[tigger101023]

ok, I'm back with more pics. Some of the pictures are better, but making them better made it almost impossible to be sure I got all 3. One would inevitably chase the others before I got known shots of all three. So I'm going to post several and just hope I have all 3 of these guys between all of the pictures.

I do appreciate all the feedback so far.

All 3 of them

Apistos - 1

Apistos - 2

Apistos - 3

 

[Mike Wise]

All of the fish pictured appear to have elongated ventral fin tips, indicative of males. Hopefully I am wrong.