Setting up a breeding tank

[Eva32181]

I guess I've really been bitten by the apisto bug. I want to try a breeding tank for a pair of cacatuoides. A few questions:

Filtration - I like my Aquaclears, but will they suck up the babies? Does putting a coarse sponge pre-filter over the intake really help? Or should I do a sponge filter instead?

Tank size - I'm thinking 20-long. The 10 I have seems to be working for my borelliis, though.

Hoods, light - for those of you who run multiple breeder tanks, do you invest in lights and hoods for every tank?

Cleanliness - Gravel or no gravel? In a tank with just two adult fish, is a bare bottom really necessary for cleanliness? I assume a 25% water change once a week would be enough, right?

Thank you in advance for the advice!!

 

[cmoreash]

here's an idea i thought of trying: get a few (2-3) ten gallon tanks, and run a 48" florescent fixture above them all, like just a cheap one from home depot. that'll do the trick. yea the sponge over intake will help i do it to keep small fish from getting sucked. I personally like substrate (i use sand/fine gravel mix) in my tanks because it looks better, and the fish seem more comfortable.

 

[Z Man]

Eva, I don't know if you have been to my site or not but I do answer a lot of your questions in an article I have written. http://members.aol.com/WnyZman/apistos.html
In short I always use a bare bottom tank with a 'bubble-up filter' and change to a 'Hydra Sponge' filter after the eggs begin to wiggle. As far as breeding tanks, the larger the better but when you are working with a half a dozen pair at the same time, 10's work well for me. I use no substrate so the gunk can be cleaned out without sucking up any fry. It's just easier maintainence. After reading the article you can e-mail me direct or post questions here.
Z-Man

 

[Neil]

I knew that setting up breeding tanks would be coming with you sooner or later.
I probably have a similar approach to Zman with a few modifications. I like using a thin layer of sand or small plain gravel as a substrate. This is still very easy to clean well, but allows for a little safety valve in case I forget to follow my water change closely enough :roll: . It seems to prevent a pH crash from occuring so quickly.
I, also, have an article on Apistogramma.com that give a number of pointers on setting up breeding tanks
http://www.apistogramma.com/tanksetup.htm
Good luck to you!
Neil

 

[Eva32181]

Thank you!

Z Man - after I posted this message I went to Neil's link area and found your site - I hadn't been to it in a long time so it was helpful to go back over it again. And thank you Neil for the link - I don't think I had read that one yet.

I seems there is no one right way to do it, just whatever works for you. I have an Aquaclear with a sponge over the intake in the Borellii's tank. I think for this next tank I will try a sponge filter, just for comparison (I'm already running an air pump for the brine shrimp hatchery, anyway).

My biggest question is substrate or no substrate. I think I want to try a layer of small, dark gravel in one tank. I have found that the bare bottom of the borellii tank gets covered with a whitish film that makes the tank look very bright, even though I have black paper underneath.

Will keep ya posted! Thanks!

 

[aspen]

eva, i am a bare bottomed guy. 8) that white film is there, substrate or not, but it is easier to see when the bottom is bare. and also easier to clean. the number one rule is cleanliness. dirt is so much easier to see, and therefore get out when the tank is bare. as long as it is a breeding tank, not a display tank, surely a bb tank is tolerable??

i set up a tank to breed my rams in, a bb 5 gal with a corner box filter, with floss, a small piece of sponge from a cycled tank, and some ceramic noodles, to keep it on the bottom. also in there is a small rock sculpture and a piece of slate and of course a heater and a light. you need to be able to see well, those babies are real small! get a magnifying glass, my 42 yr old eyes aren't as good as they used to be.

i don't like ac's for a breeding tank, because as soon as the babies are free swimming, they are blown around no matter how much you slow down the flow. but, i have done this with some tiny discus babies i got from a friend... put a small piece of sponge and a piece if floss inside the intake tube to slow down the flow to a trickle, and to get the really small stuff out of the water. but, sponge or corner box filtration are really better, imo.

whatever you decide, make sure that you mess around with the tank as little as possible when trying to breed and to raise babies. and, get the right set-up first, and there won't be too much messing around later. make sure you are well cycled before you start. any ammonia and the babies are toast. also, de-fluke the parents. flukes are the number 1 killer of fry, followed closely by bacteria, caused by unclean conditions. whatever you decide, the goal should be 100% hatch and survival rate for the fry. no-one gets that, but it IS the goal. i was never able to get more than a few raised out, but i'm going to try for a much better rate this time.

rick

 

[Eva32181]

What did you use to de-fluke? Plain old fluke tabs? I have some of those around from when my Rams were sick. Are they safe?

 

[aspen]

regarding fluke tabs and discus, since i have never heard of them used on apistos... they are a good med but must be used carefully, they are real strong.

i use quick cure, it works well and seems milder, the fish will live in it for days or weeks, and so will the filter. but for discus, flukes are a real pain to TOTALLY eradicate.

sorry about the discus advice, i've not had THAT much exp with dwarfs, much more with discus.

hth, rick

 

[Eva32181]

I got a ten gallon tank and a filter and was ready to go to start up a breeding tank, but that won't be happening for a while now. Several of my fish are showing signs of gill disease - gasping for air at the surface of the tank.

That breeding tank is now a hopital tank. I have added two teaspoons of epsom salt and one teaspoon of Rid-Ich. None of my dwarfs have the characteristic white spots, but some of my neons do - I'm thinking that they have a form of ich that attacks the gills. I have lost one of the large male cacatuoides already. This bug kills fast, whatever it is.

Still sifting through the krib for info. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Neil]

Eva,
Sorry to hear that. What a bummer. I don't know, but I'll try to look around a little too.
Neil

 

[Eva32181]

My Borelliis spawned again. There are still five babies in the tank from the last spawn. I have lost three rams, but I think the fourth Ram, a male, is going to make it. The remaining cacatuoides look okay, too.

I guess I was depressed about all this because I went out and bought three ten gallon tanks. I ordered heaters and sponge filters for them at thatpetplace.com. I don't know if you guys do that, but when girls get sad they go charge something to the credit card.

My boyfriend has a carpenter friend who owes him money, so it looks like I might get a little wooden stand for the four tanks out of this, and put a 48 inch light across the top. One of those four tanks is going to be a Q tank, I swear. I think I introduced the Ich because I failed to QT some neons. Yes I know that was really, really stupid. Really stupid.

I have been reading a really cool site in my search for answers to this problem - the address is http://www.skepticalaquarist.com Very well informed, very content heavy. If you haven't seen it, take a look.

Thanks for answering all my questions.
Eva

 

[Neil]

Eva,
It sounds like the decline in your fish has subsided!? I think we have all put fish with something into our tanks and payed the price at one time or another.
I browsed that Skeptical Aquarist link. You're right. It is very good. There is a link to Sven Kullanders site that I had not seen before. Very cool!
Good luck with this borellii spawn.
Neil

 

[Eva32181]

Yes, I think my fish are pulling through. I am going to start a new topic on apisto illness so everyone can discuss it.

The borellii spawn is going well - mom is guarding them fiercly and poor dad is hiding on the other side of the tank with a torn fin. What would you do?

If I am to pull either parent, I would have to put them in one of my new, uncycled tanks (my big tank is under treatment - no way am I going to risk a borellii in there!)

 

[aspen]

eva, i quarentine new fish in a separate room. some real bad diseases are transmitted airborne, like f/i columnaris. it also stops you using the regular buckets or syphons, when the q-tank bucket and syphon is in that separate room. my new fish get a place on the dresser in the bedroom, it is the only time the wife lets me set up in there.

rick

 

[Eva32181]

Sheesh, I never thought of that. Are these bad diseases mainly associated with wild caughts, or domestic bred fish as well?

 

[aspen]

most wild caught fish have parasites on them, unless you have gotten them from someone who knows how to clean up fish and is diligent. but, i assume that ALL fish are just waiting to infect my prized discus.

as i have stated, the first thing which a fish goes through is a treatment for external parasites. i then de-worm them, using panacur. this MUST be done in a bb tank. first you want to see what you had, but also, i have de-wormed discus and the water was thick with worms. that would be a real mess in a tank with gravel.

bacterial infections do not generally last long, nor do viral infections. once they have run their course, they are finished. however some things will go dormant and wait for the next fish to go into that tank. ask farm41, he had to disinfect his 65 gal and destroy all the fish, due to a bacterial infection earlier this year. BUT, some fish are carriers of things like f/i columnaris. they have had the disease, they were treated and 'cured', but are all ready to infect your fish. different people quote different time spans in which a fish can carry columnaris, but 6 months to a year is what most say. every month on the discus forums, someone gets fish with a nasty strain of this or that.

a LOT of people have had their whole discus hatcheries wiped out by various things and people are very cautious about what fish they will introduce into their hatcheries. some people are not too careful, and imo, that is a problem waiting to happen.

at the moment i have 13 discus in a 90 gal, and they have never shared buckets or nets or anything else with any of my other tanks. when i grow them out to full size, then i will begin the introduction of other species, very carefully. i got most of them at the size of a fingernail, and have done a LOT of work getting them to the size they are after 6 months. i know breeders with 15 breeding pairs of discus, and they would not think of introducing new fish without being VERY careful. but it really all depends on what you have invested in the way of time and money.

whether wild or domestic, you MUST assume that they are going to kill all of your fish given half a chance, until you have proven otherwise. the domestic strains of parasites, like gill flukes f/i, are much more resistant to meds than the wild ones.

rick

 

[Neil]

They are far more regular in wild caught fish, but can easily affect tank-raised with the addition of other fish or plants, etc. that have come into contact with disease (usually from wild caught fish) recently. Buying some dithers from the LFS and throwing them in with your tank raised fish is always risky. As aspen suggests, there may even be more resistant domestic strains of disease that probably easily develop and thrive at the LFS because of their high turnover and sometimes ineffective treatment regimens.
Neil

 

[Eva32181]

I knew fish diseases were bad - but not this bad! All my fish are doing fine now, but I'm keeping a close eye on everyone. I have a ten gallon Q tank set up in the bedroom (makes a nice night light), far away from the other tanks. It has its own bucket, siphon hose, and net. I got a female Ram and have put her in there. If all goes well, after a month she can go in my 55 to be with my surviving male Ram. If they spawn, that would be cool, but I'm not going to try and raise Ram babies or anything - impossible in that tank! They will be for show only.

The cacatuoides are doing fine. And my Borellii female has about 20 little fry swimming around her. I pulled the male and five of the six babies from the last spawn (she was being very territorial) and all is going well. Never could catch that sixth baby, though. Oh well.