Apistogramma macmasteri breeding set up help.

[Ianjd10]

Hey everyone. Just trying to wrap my head around things. I have 2 tanks devoted to the pair and hoping to raise fry. One is a 20 gallon tall and the other is a 20 gallon long. I plan on swapping out the 20 high soon for either a 16 gallon or 22 gallon either would be 35-36 inches long. Currently in the grow out tank with the juvenile pair of macmasteri are around 12 espei rabsora. I do not plan on making these community tank by any means but have read dithers are good. Is this generally true? Should I put a school of dithers in the 20 long I am currently setting up for them? My general plan is to move them between tanks to get them to spawn in both tanks. Remove male first, remove female when fry start to stray/not school as tightly, and then hope they spawn again in the other tank as the fry grow out in their original tank. Tank has sponge filter and I feed bbs 2x a day. I figure I want to have the second tank on standby regardless as I don’t have another tank I could put the parents in if they start to eat fry or if their is aggression from male to spawn again. Any tips appreciated as this is my first fish breeding attempt

 

[MacZ]

I do not plan on making these community tank by any means but have read dithers are good. Is this generally true? Should I put a school of dithers in the 20 long I am currently setting up for them?

These are fry predators. Only safe ones are Nannostomus. And no, dithers are not necessary for breeding.

My general plan is to move them between tanks to get them to spawn in both tanks. Remove male first, remove female when fry start to stray/not school as tightly, and then hope they spawn again in the other tank as the fry grow out in their original tank.

Rather a female per tank, get a third for the male if the ladies get too rough during brooding (which is very much possible). Still leaves you with the fact, that a growout should rather be about 100 liters.

If the female eats the fry there is a reason and usually this means conditions are not good for raising them. Always trust the fish to do that right.

Very important question: You got somebody to take the fish off your hands once they reach sale size? If not, get that sorted before even starting. Don't trust people will be eager to buy from you right away and selling retail instead of wholesale rarely pays off

 

[Ianjd10]

Very excited to see you reply Macz. I only have a single female and intend to keep it that way. I have read you say footprint is more important than volume. 36x12x12 sufficient for grow out? The 20 long is where I plan to have the male and female in together. If the 36x12 is sufficient for grow out than can I put the male in a 10 gallon solo for separation from fry and the female?
I guess which is better?
20Long to breed
22 long to grow out (36x12x12)
10 standard for male separation


20 long to breed
29 standard to grow out
16 long for male separation 35x8x11

I have 2 lfs to take the fry as well as a small fish club to bring the fry to for auctions.

 

[MacZ]

I'm on my phone. Going to convert the numbers to metric later, then I'm going to answer.

 

[Ianjd10]

I'm on my phone. Going to convert the numbers to metric later, then I'm going to answer.

20 long for breeding (75 liters) 30x12x12 inches or 76cm x 30cm x30cm
22 long for grow out (83 liters) 36x12x12 inches Or 91cm x 30cm x30cm
10 standard for male separation(maybe move my rasboras here) 38 liters and 50cm x 25cm x 30cm
This set up would be my preferred set up in terms of space management

Or same 20 long to breed
29 to grow out (109 liters) 76cm x30cm x 46cm
Either 10 gallon (dimensions above) or 16 long for male separation 16 long is 60 liters and 86cmx 25cm x 28cm.

I guess I would try and keep some Pencilfish in each of the tanks I intend to ever have fry in and the rasbora in parent only tanks. Want to keep them up constantly for cycling purposes.

 

[MacZ]

20 long for breeding (75 liters) 30x12x12 inches or 76cm x 30cm x30cm
22 long for grow out (83 liters) 36x12x12 inches Or 91cm x 30cm x30cm
10 standard for male separation(maybe move my rasboras here) 38 liters and 50cm x 25cm x 30cm

Yep, those will work. Just don't try parallel spawns. Not gonna work out without a second female.

The advantage of large growouts is the lower demand for waterchanges. The smaller the growout the more waterchanges are necessary. If you put 30 fry in that one, you'll be quickly at 50% every other day once they reach 1.5cm and 75% every other day at 3cm.

You will want perfect conditions in growout, otherwise you'll get runts. But you will want the fry to grow at roughly the same pace, so they reach sale size all together.

 

[Ianjd10]

Yep, those will work. Just don't try parallel spawns. Not gonna work out without a second female.

The advantage of large growouts is the lower demand for waterchanges. The smaller the growout the more waterchanges are necessary. If you put 30 fry in that one, you'll be quickly at 50% every other day once they reach 1.5cm and 75% every other day at 3cm.

You will want perfect conditions in growout, otherwise you'll get runts. But you will want the fry to grow at roughly the same pace, so they reach sale size all together.

Excellent. I think I only have a few more questions. I can run an extra sponge filter in my breeding tank to drop in with the fry when they are moved to the grow out, so I shouldn’t need to keep anything else in there for cycling, I plan to move my rasbora to my male seperation tank and get pencilfish for the breeding tank. How many pencilfish would you put in the breeding tank? I would likely choose Beckfordi but could also see myself getting marginatus. Breeding tank and male only tank will definitely be planted with hardscape etc, but is it a bad idea to do this on the grow out tank? Thank you so much for your help

 

[MacZ]

How many pencilfish would you put in the breeding tank?

No matter what: 10.

would likely choose Beckfordi but could also see myself getting marginatus.

Doesn't make much of a difference.

but is it a bad idea to do this on the grow out tank?

Plan removable decoration, makes things a lot easier.

 

[Mike Wise]

N. beckfordi have a reputation for preying on fry. They also tend to live in the top and middle layers of the tank. I prefer N. marginatus but other more top-dwelling species are fine, too. The number doesn't need to be large. Pencils are not true schooling fish like most tetras. Many pencilfish - especially males - can be a bit territorial. Three or four is sufficient. It really depends on the size of the tank and whether or not the apisto species needs them for security.

 

[MacZ]

N. beckfordi have a reputation for preying on fry.

Not my experience, but good to know.

Many pencilfish - especially males - can be a bit territorial.

That's exactly why I recommended 10, because then agression spreads better.

 

[Ianjd10]

N. beckfordi have a reputation for preying on fry. They also tend to live in the top and middle layers of the tank. I prefer N. marginatus but other more top-dwelling species are fine, too. The number doesn't need to be large. Pencils are not true schooling fish like most tetras. Many pencilfish - especially males - can be a bit territorial. Three or four is sufficient. It really depends on the size of the tank and whether or not the apisto species needs them for security.

The tank in question is a 20 gallon long, dimensions and metric conversions (75 liters) 30x12x12 inches or 76cm x 30cm x30cm.
Maybe I should start with 4 and if they show aggression add a few more? I like the beckfordi look more but the marginatus are easier for me to get locally so with your recommendation sounds like I have a winner

 

[anewbie]

N. beckfordi have a reputation for preying on fry. They also tend to live in the top and middle layers of the tank. I prefer N. marginatus but other more top-dwelling species are fine, too. The number doesn't need to be large. Pencils are not true schooling fish like most tetras. Many pencilfish - especially males - can be a bit territorial. Three or four is sufficient. It really depends on the size of the tank and whether or not the apisto species needs them for security.

I'm finding that n. mariynae tend to group up more than the other species i've owned which will scatter across the aquarium. This is one the thing i like about them.

 

[Ianjd10]

I’m wondering if I may be able to “vacation” my male in with my keyhole pair, who has yet to spawn. They’re pretty timid. They live in a 37 gallon aquascape with 11 rummynose tetra and a farlowella. This would allow me to get a larger tank for fry grow out. Mac z you have kept keyholes right? Think this may be a good idea?
Wondering if anyone has any suggestions for a specific brand of sand. Pool filter sand in my area is known to buffer ph and so I’m going to steer clear of that. Hopeful for something brown/tan. May use caribsea sunset gold. Substrate is the last item I need to be setting up my 20 long that the juvenile apistos should move into in about three weeks. Sponge filter will move over with them.

 

[anewbie]

Other than perhaps guarding frys i find the keyholes not very territorial and mellow. I have 7 with a male agassiz in a 180. Not exactly apple and oranges though I will note that while the gassiz is by itself (no female) it still has a territory and will poke at the larger cichild if they enter his small territory. He's pretty old now 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 - i'd have to look up the exact date of purchase and this is just a place for him to hang out.

My group fo 7 keyholes do not appear to have paired up or shown breeding behavior but i do have 6 l. araguaiae in the tank and they have formed two strong pairs that frequently breed. This is not really a good setup for various reasons but rather i'm just using it to answer your question. 'cept when breeding the 14 folks get along. the male a. agassizii territory is not near the breeding site(s) of the two pairs of l. araguaiae so i've not seen any conflict with them though the keyholes behave a bit like cory and dont' really pay attention to territories.

Anyway the answer to your question as long as the keyholes aren't breeding i don't think you will have any problem with them though the mac is more likely to show aggression.