safely lowering Ph

[trev1]

what is the max you should go for lowering ph for breeding apistos?
and what would the gh be for keeping to ph stable?

thanks for the help

trev

 

[tjudy]

I have never seen a good description or table of the best ratios for GH, KH and pH specifically produced for breeding fish, but there are resources out there for maintaining a balance in planted tanks that use pressurized CO2.

What I do if I want really soft and very acidic water is,

A) Start with RO and add KH (I use Kent Marine pH Stable) to raise the value up to KH 2.

B) Use a pH reducer (I use Kent Marine pH Minus) to reduce the pH to the leel I want it. If there are fish in the tank I dissolve 1/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons and add that once a day until the pH I want is reached. Just to be safe, I only add 1/2 of the solution, let it sit for 15 minute or so and then test the pH. If it has dropped .2 pH or more I do not add any more until the next day.

If I am setting up a tank without fish I will srop the pH to where I want it and then acclimate the fish into it UNLESS the fish are coming from a significantly higher pH.

 

[electric eel]

as we talked about at the aca last summer,Ted,i was very sucessfull using sodium bisulfate for reaching a variey of ph's(from 4.8 to about 6.5) and keeping the ph stable.i mixed 200 grams of sodium bisulfate to one gallon of distilled water(i had no idea what the saturation point was so i just guessed)i would add the stock solution to my make up water 4ml at a time in a dedicated 55gallon tank until i reached my desired ph.i reconstituted my ro water to between 50ppm and 150ppm with ro right(or similar product) depending on the particular type of fish i was making up the water for.6 dollars worth of s. bisulfate will adjust the ph of a heck of a lot of water(i never used up the first container i bought)if i remember right i believe it took 40ml to take 55 gallons of my 8.1 ph ro water adjusted to 50ppm down to 5.6 ph and keep it there.i talked to a chemist at the aca and he told me that he was pretty sure that s.bisulfate buffered somewhere in the mid to high 4's so the danger of ph dropping to really dangerous levels( for dicrossus,a lot of apisto's and other fish that like really acidic water) is pretty small.

 

[Mike Wise]

Personally, I don't like 'playing chemistry set' with tanks with live fish. I'm fortunate to have naturally soft water. If I want to lower the pH, I use containers in which I circulate tap (or if needed RO) water through peat. I can drop the pH into the 3.5 range very easily if needed. I then add lower pH water to tank water at water changes, a little at a time. How low and how quickly I can drop the pH really depends on the species.

 

[tjudy]

For some reason, even with RO water, I get inconsistent results with peat... but that is just me. Many people are very successful with peat.

 

[jmtrops]

I believe pH shock is a myth. We have a friend down here in Florida who is a water chemisty expert. He has worked with the Shed aquarium and several of the aquarium product manufacturers. What I have learned from him is that fast changes in hardness is what causes the problems and that changes in pH are not an issue. I have also heard this from other people who claim to experts and have not seen any evidance that proves them wrong. I really have not seen to many cases where you really need to drop your pH for the fish and I adjust my hardness for the species I'm working with and let the pH go to where it wants to. I just think most people are spending to much time and adding to many chemicals needlessly to their tanks just to maintain a pH level they think they need. How many species really need a pH of 5 or lower. We have to be carefull not to confuse soft water with acidic water because they are not the same. Your RO water with level out to a pH of 7.0 without adding any chemicals so it is two different things. I just mix my Ro with tap untill I get about 80 us hardness and don't care about the pH. I have been breeding P. signatus with perfect sex ratios this way and have not had any problems spawning any my fish. IMO most of the fish we talk about here need soft water and don't really care if the pH is 6, 6.5, 7 or 7.5. For years people have been breeding discus and apistos down here with tap water that has a minimum pH of 7.8 and a moderatly high hardness. Of coase this is what works for my friends and me down here, just my 2 cents worth.

 

[ed seeley]

I believe pH shock is a myth. We have a friend down here in Florida who is a water chemisty expert. He has worked with the Shed aquarium and several of the aquarium product manufacturers. What I have learned from him is that fast changes in hardness is what causes the problems and that changes in pH are not an issue. I have also heard this from other people who claim to experts and have not seen any evidance that proves them wrong. I really have not seen to many cases where you really need to drop your pH for the fish and I adjust my hardness for the species I'm working with and let the pH go to where it wants to. I just think most people are spending to much time and adding to many chemicals needlessly to their tanks just to maintain a pH level they think they need. How many species really need a pH of 5 or lower. We have to be carefull not to confuse soft water with acidic water because they are not the same. Your RO water with level out to a pH of 7.0 without adding any chemicals so it is two different things. I just mix my Ro with tap untill I get about 80 us hardness and don't care about the pH. I have been breeding P. signatus with perfect sex ratios this way and have not had any problems spawning any my fish. IMO most of the fish we talk about here need soft water and don't really care if the pH is 6, 6.5, 7 or 7.5. For years people have been breeding discus and apistos down here with tap water that has a minimum pH of 7.8 and a moderatly high hardness. Of coase this is what works for my friends and me down here, just my 2 cents worth.

Got to say I agree with this. I try and keep the TDS stable and pay little attention to the pH itself.

 

[Rod]

Got my vote!

concentrate on TDS.....ph sorts itself out

I do add ketapang leaves to all my soft water tanks.....tannic acid is best

Softer for breeding....increase Kh in growout tanks (snails do this anyway!) for proper bone development

 

[jose_vogel]

I agree too.

 

[viejo]

Me too & I'm not all that convinced about 'osmotic shock' from water density changes. IMHO, what causes problems is chemical turmoil cause by mixing waters of different values (pH, nitrogenous compounds, etc.) & the main reason that don't believe in the advantages of 'acclimation' for fishes although some invertebrates can be another story.

 

[trev1]

thanks

thanks for all the advice everyone. I have just tried something and would love your input once again.
I have a sweater box and it holds 12 gallons of water, i bought some 'seachem acid regulator and seachem neutral regulator.' I went with the directions and used 1 level scoop of neutral regulator and 6 teaspoons of acid regulator.
this made my water a Ph of 6.2 and the KH of 2, not bad so i think.
This of course is all with RO water. so i pulled out my TDS meter and holy cow, 1002 it read. my RO water reads 40...my tap is 650..
I dont know what to do. is this high tds going to screw my sex ratios up? any help would be great.
what i am breeding is apisto viejita, apisto agassizi, Pelvicachromis taeniatus moliwe, nigeria red.

thanks guys
trev

 

[Rod]

mmmmm....

I'd throw out the chemicals.....
Try mixing treated tap water with your ro water
Measure the Gh Kh and TDS to ensure it is low.....but I wouldn't stress about any particular number.....important thing is to be able to repeat the mix easily
Control TDS with % of tap water used....tap water will contain all chemicals needed to handle buffering
Don't worry about the ph.....add some ketapang leaves(used for bettas and available on most ebay's)or extract....ie NATURAL chemicals.....don't add any buffers etc

The aquarium industry wants you to focus on ph....why???
because they can sell you test kits,ph up,ph down and all sorts of buffers which you have to continually resupply....very Good business
but a recipe for disaster...and mostly not necessary

In my opinion and experience....less is more and keep it simple are the best strategies

You wont need super soft or super acid water for any of the fish mentioned
2/3 ro water to 1/3 aged tap water works for me....and is easily repeatable and I don't need to buy any chemicals other than a water ager(chlorine neutraliser)

In my experience soft water increases fertility of eggs....temp controls sex ratio
I've also found that taeniatus will have an increased incidence of internal bacterial infections if water is not soft.....
I think this is why some people have difficulty with apisto's too.....they worry about ph....add all sorts of chemicals....and get acid water with high TDS

Uwe Romer and Wolfgang Beisenherz studied the effect of temperature and
pH on 33 species of Apisto fry and found that during the first month of
development low temperatures (below 76 F -- the "cool" test tanks were 74
degrees) produced more females. Low pH (5.5 and below) produced more
males, but had less influence. If you want balanced sex ratios, try to
keep your tanks at 76 degrees during the first month of fry development.
That may be a challenge in Florida.

 

[electric eel]

i just threw the sodium bisulfate method out there as an option for anyone interested to try.it is easy(with the aid of a good tds/ph meter) and much cheaper then using products sold by the aquarium industry and has a negligiable affect on NaCl levels(a concern one member had) while i respect the opinions of everyone on here that prefer using natural methods.i personally have had fish that were very unhappy in blackwater that i treated with peat or indian almond leaves but were very happy in clear water that i treated with chemicals.i did'nt just "play chemistry set" when i started using the method.the first time i aged the water for 4 days and checked it twice a day to make sure it was stable before i ever used it in a tank.as another member told me "there is more then one road to rome" and i have always tried to keep an open mind and been willing to try different things until i found what worked for me.i have had some fish that while they would spawn readily in harder higher ph water
the eggs just would'nt hatch unless i used soft,acidic water(a natural bactricide)

 

[viejo]

i have had some fish that while they would spawn readily in harder higher ph water
the eggs just would'nt hatch unless i used soft,acidic water(a natural bactricide)

I've just started having similar problems with the eggs of certain species refusing to hatch in my water including rams which I had raised successfully in water of a much higher hardness ( but a lower pH which may be significant). I originally attributed my lack of success with rams to the fact that I had told people how easy & unproblematic they were. My latest conundrum is with the fish being called: hopefully across the board, hemichromis .cf ('cant find' :wink cristatus UL-1. They eggs seem to be perfectly fertile & few turn white but they just sit there until they eventually disintegrate. I tried pulling the eggs & incubating in very soft water with black water extract or methylene blue, no joy. I have since placed the breeders in water of a low hardness & an acid pH - 6.0. Naturally, they have refused to spawn since. Of course the H. sp. 'moanda' in the same tank are being typical jewels - baby machines!

 

[electric eel]

have you tried alder cones,larry?i had great luck hatching eggs from heavily inbred(not by me) strains of domesticated angelfish,they were seemingly impossible to hatch(was getting a very low hatch rate using 30% hydrogen peroxide to shock the water in the hatching jug along with meth.blue and acriflavine-which was my tried and true method) got much better results shocking the water and using alder cones with no chemicals.

 

[viejo]

It's worth a shot. They have started spawning again in low TDS water with a pH under 6 but still no joy. Where is a good source of alder cones? BTW, the water also has a nice blackwater effect from Indian Almond leaves.

 

[Hassles]

Shock

well, if someone waves their magic wand and we all 'suddenly' find ourselves on the shoulder of Mt. Everest, how do you think you're gonna' feel ?

 

[Apistomaster]

I really try to avoid using chemicals to alter my water chemistry.
I know my water has a good balance between carbonate and magnesium sulfate hardness so I only lower the TDS by dilution with RO water. I make the dilution in 50% steps down over a period of only a few days.
Once the carbonate and permanent hardness is very low, 2 DGH or ~50 ppm or less the pH begins to drop on it's own gradually.
I haven't used any acid buffer for years.
Almost all of the SA Dwarf cichids will spawn more successfully in very soft water. The processes of organic decay seems to cause the pH to drop. I begin with tap water with a pH of 7.4, TDS 340 ppm, KH 6* and GH ~7*.
My pH always becomes acidic once the TDS is >50 ppm and to get lower I lower the TDS down to around 20 ppm.
I have one tank set up for Black Darter Tetras and the midget sucker mouth catfish, Parotocinclus cf. epplyei which is only using RO water which has not passed through a final stage mixed bed ion exchange resin cartridge so it comes out at about 10 ppm. Their tank has some wood and is carpeted wall to wall with Singapore Moss. The TDS remains below 20 ppm and the pH remains between 3.5 and 4.0. All without the use of any chemicals or materials designed to lower the pH.
Little is to be gained by adding things to your water when it comes to soft water or black water fishes. You really want to remove things.
This is also a safer, cheaper and much easier approach to take.