Making sure I understand before jumping in...

[Viridis]

Hello,
I'm starting to design/build my fish "room" (more of a wall really), and just want to make sure I don't have anything missing. I've read essentially this entire site, so hopefully I'm not repeating any frequently asked questions.

Before the questions, here's what I plan on setting up;
There will be 2x 6-foot shelves. The bottom shelf will consist of 2x 40gal breeders (These won't have apistos in them), then 6x 20gal highs (apistos) on the second, and 7x 10gal on the tops shelf for fry. Half of these will be to expand the shrimp colony, So I'm only worried about the one rack for fish.

For the water change system, The plan is to have an R/O-DI filtered installed which will fill up a 55 gallon barrel. This barrel will then have a pump that will fill up another 55 gallon barrel which will be used to filter the water with peat (The pure R/O barrel will then fill back up.) There will be pumps in each barrel connected to a pipe leading to the tanks. All tanks will have Mattenfilters on the back.

On to the questions:
How much peat should I put into the barrel? Would it be beneficial to use Alder cones and/or oak leaves as well? or leave those for the tanks?

From what I understand, when the carbonate levels are almost or completely absent, pH isn't all that important to measure. Now obviously with R/O, there won't be any. Is there any point in adding it, or will the peat just remove it anyways, making it a useless step? I think I've read about some using just pure R/O for their apistos?

Since a lot of tropical soils contain large amounts of Iron, would it be beneficial to add to the tanks? I have a ton of Redart clay (~7% Fe2O3 if I remember correctly) from making soil for dart frog tanks. If it makes a difference, I don't plan on really having any plants except Pistia stratiodes and maybe Hydrocleys nymphoides in one of the tanks. This paper does say it (or rather iron oxidation) stimulates OM decomposition, though I'm not sure if it's relevant in Aquariums/under water.

Leaves in the tanks. I know they are beneficial for numerous reasons, but can you have TOO many in a tank? I would think the only worry some would have would be mulm build up, correct?

Are there any drugs that Apistos are highly sensitive too? I plan on using Paracide-D in QT as a preventitive measure, but will obviously use somthing else if it's too strong (for lack of a better word).

 

[gerald]

What species are you planning to keep? There's relatively few that NEED ultra-soft water to breed. Most Apistos do fine with 1 to 3 degrees GH hardness (18 to 50 mg/L), and keeping things stable will be easier with some hardness.

 

[Viridis]

What species are you planning to keep? There's relatively few that NEED ultra-soft water to breed. Most Apistos do fine with 1 to 3 degrees GH hardness (18 to 50 mg/L), and keeping things stable will be easier with some hardness.

The softwater tanks will be (hopefully, depending on availability):
A. sp. Miuá
A. paulmuelleri/ sp. 'Masken'
A. allpahuayo/ sp. Black Chin
(plus dithers)

and non apistos:
Crenicara punctulatum
Betta albimarginata (or channoides)
Sphaerichthys osphromenoides

 

[gerald]

Oh how I wish I could keep Sphaerichthys. It's been many years since i've even tried, but I dont think I've ever gotten one to live a full year. I like to blame their early deaths on the condition of the fish before I get them, but that might not always be the cause |;>) The C. punc, B. albi and B. chan should all do fine with a few degrees hardness. I kept B. chan for about 3 generations in Raleigh NC tap water with about 2 dGH. I dont know about those 3 Apistos you listed; other folks here may chime in.

I would use shed tree leaves in addition to the peat. Whether you put them in the tank or conditioning barrel or both places is your choice. I'd assume (no real data) that different plants (trees vs moss) contribute different organic components that may be valuable to fish.

 

[Mike Wise]

I don't know of any hard/fast rule for the amount of peat to use. If you don't have a pH/conductivity meter, now is the time to get one. I personally keep 2 conditioning tanks - one with peat and the other straight R/O. Then I mix to get the pH/conductivity range (note: not a specific value) that works for the fish.

 

[Viridis]

Oh how I wish I could keep Sphaerichthys. It's been many years since i've even tried, but I dont think I've ever gotten one to live a full year. I like to blame their early deaths on the condition of the fish before I get them, but that might not always be the cause |;>) The C. punc, B. albi and B. chan should all do fine with a few degrees hardness. I kept B. chan for about 3 generations in Raleigh NC tap water with about 2 dGH. I dont know about those 3 Apistos you listed; other folks here may chime in.

I would use shed tree leaves in addition to the peat. Whether you put them in the tank or conditioning barrel or both places is your choice. I'd assume (no real data) that different plants (trees vs moss) contribute different organic components that may be valuable to fish.

You are actually not the first I've heard that from about Sphaerichthys... It seems some (a lot) can't keep them past 6 months no matter what they try, while the others have no problems whatsoever. I'd think it is partly how they're handled from collection to store/wholesalers. Similar things can be seen in reptiles & amphibians (my main hobby), with there being a pretty large mortality rate (Sometimes upto 95% for the really finicky spp.) in order to get animals that "thrive" and breed in captive situations. I guess I'll give them a shot, and if they don't make it, use the tank for more Apistos.

So you think it would be a good idea to add some sort of buffer (MgSO4/NaHCO3 mixture?)?

I definitely plan on keeping leaves/cones/&c. in the tank, a really thick layer of leaves. I've thought something similar about using different leaves, definitely wouldn't hurt!

I don't know of any hard/fast rule for the amount of peat to use. If you don't have a pH/conductivity meter, now is the time to get one. I personally keep 2 conditioning tanks - one with peat and the other straight R/O. Then I mix to get the pH/conductivity range (note: not a specific value) that works for the fish.

I do have a pH and a TDS meter (need new pH calibration liquid though). You mentioned that you mix them to get the range that works for the fish, but that it's not a specific value... Do you test it with each species to figure out the mix? or just go for a general mix for the softest water tanks, one for the more tolerant spp., etc.?

 

[Mike Wise]

Me? I use tap water for white & clearwater species. I have soft tap water. For blackwater species I go by species. Upper Rio Negro species, for example, are more demanding than most blackwater species from Peru and other locations.

 

[gerald]

Viridis - whats your tap water hardness? You probably dont need to add any buffers -- just mix tap and RO, unless you just dont trust the tap at all and would rather "reconstitute" a fish-suitable blend from scratch. What's your tap water hardness (GH)? IF you start with "stripped" water (RO) and add hardness back in, use both Ca and Mg - fish and plants need both. Mg alone with no Ca may not keep things alive.

 

[Mike Wise]

A little peat adds some needed elements and fish get most of these from the food they eat.

 

[Viridis]

Viridis - whats your tap water hardness? You probably dont need to add any buffers -- just mix tap and RO, unless you just dont trust the tap at all and would rather "reconstitute" a fish-suitable blend from scratch. What's your tap water hardness (GH)? IF you start with "stripped" water (RO) and add hardness back in, use both Ca and Mg - fish and plants need both. Mg alone with no Ca may not keep things alive.

I'm waiting for a new test kit, so I don't have GH levels right now, but as soon as I do, I'll post it. I can say, the last time I tried adding peat to water, the lowest it got was pH 7.4; and that was with a large amount of peat.

I completely forgot about the calcium! I'll add that.

A little peat adds some needed elements and fish get most of these from the food they eat.

So only a little is needed? I assume there's a maximum the water can hold, but is there a minimum for these elements that should be in the water? Are any of them not acquired through the food?


What do you guys think about the iron and Meds?

 

[Mike Wise]

When you add more Ca you usually make the water harder. This makes it more difficult to lower the pH. Without knowing your tank's dKH (carbonate hardess) values, we really can't recommend how to lower your pH.

 

[Viridis]

I may have worded my last reply wrong (I was running out the door)... I wasn't going to add the Ca to the apisto tanks, but to the "buffer mix" I mentioned above (whether or not I use that I guess will depend on whether or not I use R/O... I'll have to do some testing before setting up the tanks).

I wasn't worried about lowering the pH... That's easy enough. I just didn't know if the buffer was necessary, or if the acids/peat would remove them from the water anyways, making it useless to add them to R/O in the first place.

 

[Mike Wise]

Too much 'chemistry set' for me. I just use water, either my low KH tap water or R/O, and adjust the pH with peat. The fish don't seem to care as long as it's within their tolerance range. IMHO once water management becomes work the hobby is no longer fun.

 

[gerald]

Adding acids will not remove Ca or Mg (GH components), but it will remove (neutralize) bicarbonate (KH). Peat, leaves, or wood might absorb some Ca and Mg, but the effect will only be noticeable if Ca and Mg are at very low levels to begin with. And as Mike said previously, if the fish food has Ca and Mg, soft-water fish species can get by with hardly any Ca and Mg in their water.