Is this a pair of Apistogramma cf. moae?

[anewbie]

The biggest "problem" , or actually the biggest fun is this: I bought these fish at a very reputable LFS. One of the best in the Netherlands. The owner and his staff know their stuff. They sell them as Apistogramma cf. moae. Their information about the fish is: collection site: Rio Yurua Peru.
But if you look at them they have a lot of the characteristics of A. cf. eunotus. Eunotus is a large complex with transitional forms and the characteristics are very diverse even within a population. Sometimes A. moae is placed in the eunotus complex. I just follow Mike Wise's advice. They could be cf. moae or cf. eunotus. If the collection site truelly is Rio Yurua Peru, cf. moae is better fitting. But the fish have a lot of cf. eunotus, I admit. I guess we will never be completly sure.
Perhaps Apistogramma cf. moae aff. eunotus or Apistogramma cf. eunotus aff. moae is an option? (I'm kidding)

Well you might know one day if they colour up and match a known catch.

 

[Mike Wise]

Is'nt it amazing how different the same fish can appear in different moods? I now am more certain that Frank's identification is correct. It is a form/population of A. cf. eunotus.

Your supplier can be the most reputable one around but no one is totally knowledgeable on every fish. Most, like all of us who don't collect the fish ourselves, have to depend on information that is given to us. Yes, your fish could be from the Rio Jurua and be exported from Cruzeiro do Sul and still not be from that location. The Jurua is a tributary of the Amazon and your fish could be from the lower, not middle, Jurua. There are typical eunotus-subcomplex species from the area. Cruzeiro do Sul could also be where the fish was shipped, just like Manaus is the location where most Rio Negro fish are exported. Neither city is the actual collecting site. This is only a guess. We probably will never know for certain.

 

[LBT]

Is'nt it amazing how different the same fish can appear in different moods? I now am more certain that Frank's identification is correct. It is a form/population of A. cf. eunotus.

Your supplier can be the most reputable one around but no one is totally knowledgeable on every fish. Most, like all of us who don't collect the fish ourselves, have to depend on information that is given to us. Yes, your fish could be from the Rio Jurua and be exported from Cruzeiro do Sul and still not be from that location. The Jurua is a tributary of the Amazon and your fish could be from the lower, not middle, Jurua. There are typical eunotus-subcomplex species from the area. Cruzeiro do Sul could also be where the fish was shipped, just like Manaus is the location where most Rio Negro fish are exported. Neither city is the actual collecting site. This is only a guess. We probably will never know for certain.

Thank you. Like I said, I actually find this fun. I still follow your advice. So from now on I will refer to them as A. cf. eunotus.

 

[LBT]

These fish sure move fast. I took some pictures of the male and how fast he is growing.

 

[LBT]

I noticed I hadn’t seen the female for a while. Today I found out why….

 

[rasmusW]

Congrats with the kids.

-r

 

[Mike Wise]

The more I see the less certain that these fish are from Brazil. They look just like A. cf. eunotus Orangeschwanz from near Iquitos, Peru, a major export location.

 

[LBT]

The more I see the less certain that these fish are from Brazil. They look just like A. cf. eunotus Orangeschwanz from near Iquitos, Peru, a major export location.

Well the fish are said to be collected in Peru.
I still find it a difficult fish to pinpoint. Female has 6 dots on her flank and the dark shade above it. The pictures I found about breeding females usually have 5 or less dots. The male has red stripes and dots on his gillplates. Ingo Koslowski, Wolfgang Staeck, Uwe Römer give conflicting descriptions and pictures.
But the most important thing is, I have a breeding pair. They do very well.

 

[Frank Hättich]

I still find it a difficult fish to pinpoint.

It's actually very easy: if the said catch location is correct, it's a new form/species and an adequate name would be A. cf. eunotus (Rio Yurua). On the other hand, if it's from some other, unknown catch location, it's impossible to tell for sure whether it's a known or new species. In this case just call it A. cf. eunotus.

Female has 6 dots on her flank and the dark shade above it. The pictures I found about breeding females usually have 5 or less dots.

Among the pictures of A. cf. eunotus females shown in Koslowski's book on p. 79 are at least 3 females with 6 spots. The number of spots shown by breeding females might very well vary even within a given species/form/population.

The male has red stripes and dots on his gillplates.

It's very common that different males from the same catch location can show differences in coloration, like red spots, that's called polychromatism.

Ingo Koslowski, Wolfgang Staeck, Uwe Römer give conflicting descriptions and pictures.

Probably because they are talking about different forms of A. (cf.) eunotus. The males shown in CA1 by Römer show at least two different forms/species.

 

[anewbie]

Pity that you can't capture a fish's DNA via just taking a picture.

 

[Mike Wise]

Well the fish are said to be collected in Peru.

The Rio Jurua/Yurua is a river found in western Brazil although a few of its headwater streams do originate in eastern Peru. 'Yurua' is the Portuguese spelling and 'Jurua' is the Spanish spelling for the same river. I get the feeling that I know the Peruvian collector/exporter. He often goes into Brazil to collect or bring to Peru fish from Brazil, often illegally. When I was in his export station in 2015 he had a tank full of Zebra Plecos he claimed that were from Peru. Although I respect him greatly for is knowledge of fish and where to find them, I have problems believing many of his reported collecting locations.

 

[LBT]

The Rio Jurua/Yurua is a river found in western Brazil although a few of its headwater streams do originate in eastern Peru. 'Yurua' is the Portuguese spelling and 'Jurua' is the Spanish spelling for the same river. I get the feeling that I know the Peruvian collector/exporter. He often goes into Brazil to collect or bring to Peru fish from Brazil, often illegally. When I was in his export station in 2015 he had a tank full of Zebra Plecos he claimed that were from Peru. Although I respect him greatly for is knowledge of fish and where to find them, I have problems believing many of his reported collecting locations.

Love this reply! Great story.
Imagine I succeed in rearing this current nest and I give away these fish.
This would be my ad copy for the website.

F1 Apistogramma cf eunotus (orangetail) (probably).
I obtained the parents as Apistogramma cf moae from the Rio Jurua in Peru but after a post on Apistogramma.com several very knowledgeable men, including Mike Wise and Frank Hattich, were able to tell me that it isn't A.cf. moae and probably not the Rio Jurua and probably not Peru.

I would want that fish...

 

[LBT]

It's actually very easy: if the said catch location is correct, it's a new form/species and an adequate name would be A. cf. eunotus (Rio Yurua). On the other hand, if it's from some other, unknown catch location, it's impossible to tell for sure whether it's a known or new species. In this case just call it A. cf. eunotus.


Among the pictures of A. cf. eunotus females shown in Koslowski's book on p. 79 are at least 3 females with 6 spots. The number of spots shown by breeding females might very well vary even within a given species/form/population.

It's very common that different males from the same catch location can show differences in coloration, like red spots, that's called polychromatism.

Probably because they are talking about different forms of A. (cf.) eunotus. The males shown in CA1 by Römer show at least two different forms/species.

Yeah i regret my post.. that wasn't my best moment.

 

[LBT]

I’d like to mention a few things I’ve noticed about this species.


These observations may be perfectly normal for this species, but I’m certainly not an expert. If anyone has more experience with this fish, I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts.

• The growth rate, especially of the male, has really surprised me. In about one month he has grown from approximately 3.5 cm (1.4 inches) to at least 5 cm (2 inches), and he has also become much more robust in body shape.
• He is quite dominant. He even tries to drive away fully grown Keyhole Cichlids (Cleithracara maronii) from his territory. He doesn’t always succeed, of course, but he certainly isn’t intimidated by them.
• He occasionally helps the female with brood care. Not constantly, but much more often than I expected from an Apistogramma male.
• His coloration is extremely variable. Like a chameleon, he can completely change his colour pattern within just a few seconds.
• The brood is remarkably large, especially considering that neither fish is fully grown yet and this is their very first spawn.
• Despite this being their first brood, the female has proven to be an excellent mother. After more than a week, I can still count well over 60 fry.
• One thing that differs from my experience with other Apistogramma species is the behaviour of the fry. Most species I’ve kept claim a relatively small section of the aquarium and keep the fry together in a tight school. This brood, however, roams throughout the entire aquarium, which measures 100 × 40 cm (39 × 16 inches). The fry are very inquisitive and form a much looser school, spreading out over a surprisingly large area while foraging before regrouping.

I’m curious whether these observations are typical for this species or whether I’ve simply ended up with an unusually successful young pair.

 

[Frank Hättich]

F1 Apistogramma cf eunotus (orangetail) (probably).
I obtained the parents as Apistogramma cf moae from the Rio Jurua in Peru but after a post on Apistogramma.com several very knowledgeable men, including Mike Wise and Frank Hattich, were able to tell me that it isn't A.cf. moae and probably not the Rio Jurua and probably not Peru.

I would only call them "A. cf. eunotus (Orangetail) (probably)" if you knew for sure that they were collected in the area where this species is located. But since you have no reliable catch location at all (not even a country), I would just call them A. cf. eunotus.