Is this a pair of Apistogramma cf. moae?

[LBT]

I just got two A. cf. moae. Just not sure of male-female.
So my questions are:
Is it Apistogramma cf. moae
Are they a male and female?

 

[Frank Hättich]

One of your fish shows very distinct split vertical bars, something I have never seen on any A. moae. On all the pictures of the latter I know, merely in one picture I can see a very faint split bar. Therefore, unlike A. moae, your fish are for sure an eunotus-subcomplex species and if this is the case, it doesn't makes much sense to call them A. cf. moae in the first place. Anyway, do you have any information on the catch location? Are they even from Brazil?

 

[LBT]

One of your fish shows very distinct split vertical bars, something I have never seen on any A. moae. On all the pictures of the latter I know, merely in one picture I can see a very faint split bar. Therefore, unlike A. moae, your fish are for sure an eunotus-subcomplex species and if this is the case, it doesn't makes much sense to call them A. cf. moae in the first place. Anyway, do you have any information on the catch location? Are they even from Brazil?

Thank you for your reply. These fish came from Peru. Unfortunately I don't have more information. After a few more days of settling in, both start to show orange in the tail. The one which I am pretty sure is a male, also has steelblue on the gill, red and blue stripes and spots on the gill and a redish hue around the pectoral fins.
So eunotus complex is absolutly possible.
Furthermore they are still small, like 3-3,5 cm.

 

[Mike Wise]

It seems, from your description of their color, that the could be A. cf. eunotus (Orangeschwanz). This species is found around Iquitos, Peru and matches what you have described.

 

[LBT]

It seems, from your description of their color, that the could be A. cf. eunotus (Orangeschwanz). This species is found around Iquitos, Peru and matches what you have described.

Thank you for your reply. I understand that the eunotus complex is a rather diverse group with many variations and transition forms. Any idea why these fish were sold as cf. moae instead of cf. eunotus? It would certainly be safer, since both species aren't particulary sought after.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Any idea why these fish were sold as cf. moae instead of cf. eunotus? It would certainly be safer, since both species aren't particulary sought after.

Knowing that your fish are from Peru and show distinct split bars, it in fact doesn't makes any sense at all to call them A. cf. moae instead of A. cf. eunotus.

 

[Mike Wise]

Any idea why these fish were sold as cf. moae instead of cf. eunotus? It would certainly be safer, since both species aren't particulary sought after.

New and/or rare always brings in more interest - and money.

 

[rasmusW]

I think i have seen the same stocklist as LBT. The describtion says: RÍO YURÚA, PERU.
-if that is any help.

-r

 

[LBT]

I think i have seen the same stocklist as LBT. The describtion says: RÍO YURÚA, PERU.
-if that is any help.

-r

That's just 30 km (18 miles) from Rio Moa in Brazil.
I love a good mistery....

 

[LBT]

So i've done some research. I was triggered by the reply of rasmusW about the stocklist. I called my LFS and he confirmed the catch location to be Rio Yurua, Peru. I still think that my fish are A. cf eunotus because of the split vertical band but I've read in Dr. Wolfgang Staeck Kleine Buntbarsche auflage 2017 that he caught A. moae in the vicinity of the city of Cruizero del Sol, in the catchment area of the lower Rio Moa and the Rio Jurua. Translated from German. Page 127.
The Jurua is the Brazilian name of Rio Yurua in Peru.
Now I understand why they are sold as A. cf moae.
Anyway, I have some very interesting fish.
And the other question about the sex?
The male is displaying all the time to the female, who is turning yellow already.

 

[Mike Wise]

First, Cruzeiro do Sul is located on the upper Rio Jurua. The Rio Moa, a tributary of the Jurua, is the type locality for A. moae. So that part seems ok. However all 'typical' eunotus-subcomplex species (= noticable split vertical bar(s) on caudal peduncle) are found in tributaries of the Rio Ucayali or close to the main channel of the Amazon in Peru, Colombia, and Brazil. There are species that can be questionably assigned to the subcomplex - like A. moae and A. sp. Nadelsteifen. Based on your latest photos, your fish fish appear to be in the moae/Nadelstreifen part. This is a problem that often occurs with not seeing the actual fish or with a limited number of photos that do not show the fish in different behaviors. Personally, based on the photos shown here, I see no problem labeling them as either A. cf. moae or A. cf. eunotus. If the collection site that was given is accurate, then A. cf. moae would be the better choice. That being said, commercial collectors often give inacurate collecting data to hide their true collecting sites from other commercial collectors.

 

[LBT]

First, Cruzeiro do Sul is located on the upper Rio Jurua. The Rio Moa, a tributary of the Jurua, is the type locality for A. moae. So that part seems ok. However all 'typical' eunotus-subcomplex species (= noticable split vertical bar(s) on caudal peduncle) are found in tributaries of the Rio Ucayali or close to the main channel of the Amazon in Peru, Colombia, and Brazil. There are species that can be questionably assigned to the subcomplex - like A. moae and A. sp. Nadelsteifen. Based on your latest photos, your fish fish appear to be in the moae/Nadelstreifen part. This is a problem that often occurs with not seeing the actual fish or with a limited number of photos that do not show the fish in different behaviors. Personally, based on the photos shown here, I see no problem labeling them as either A. cf. moae or A. cf. eunotus. If the collection site that was given is accurate, then A. cf. moae would be the better choice. That being said, commercial collectors often give inacurate collecting data to hide their true collecting sites from other commercial collectors.

Thank you for your reply. To me it just proves that they are very interesting. Either way they are fish that tell a story. The nadelstreif (needlestripe) is one I never heard of before. Since we have no way of knowing if it's the real collection site, I will for the time being refer to them as A. cf. moae. I will keep foto updates as they grow and hopefully spawn.

 

[LBT]

It's moving very quickly. Although they are still small (3,5-4 cm or around 1,4-1,6 inch) the male claims a territory around a coconut and adjacent cave……

 

[LBT]

And the female is already very interested.

 

[anewbie]

Kids - they sure do mature fast these days.

 

[Frank Hättich]

The male seems to show split bars all the time - for me it's some form of A. cf. eunotus. In the area where they are said to be collected, there are many rivers which are tributaries of the Rio Ucayali.

 

[anewbie]

The male seems to show split bars all the time - for me it's some form of A. cf. eunotus. In the area where they are said to be collected, there are many rivers which are tributaries of the Rio Ucayali.

For naive sob like myself can you explain what you mean by split bar. When I look at the species description on Mike's site it seems the split bar are the vertical lines that split mid way down forming upside down trees but when i look at the fishes i see female with bars and the male without bars.

Or are the 'split' bars when the vertical bars have breaks in it but in any case i'm not even seeing that.

There is only one reference to split bars in the species description and it is not even clear to me what is is calling a split bar.
--
I went through tom's picture of all the cf eunotus pictures and a few of htem were stressed but i still couldn't really see what this split bar was you are mentioning. He has a lot of pictures for Huanta and Shishita - or is the 'split' bar when the lateral bar is broken up and the vertical split bar it mentions something totally different ?
---

Here is the text:




Apistogramma-eunotus-Subcomplex
In addition to features seen on all species in the A.-eunotus-complex, the species of the A.-eunotus-subcomplex are characterized by a comparatively higher, even to slightly serrated, dorsal fin (1). Males commonly possess round tails, colored orange in parts. Some species can develop one or two caudal fin extensions. An orange spot at the insertion of the pectoral fin is characteristic of this subcomplex (2). Many, but not all species of the A.-eunotus-subcomplex develop one or more split vertical bars on the posterior half of the flanks when in threat display. These splits are formed from scales that become light colored in the 5th, 6th and rarely 7th vertical bars below the lateral band (3). Split vertical bars are not unique to this A.-eunotus-subcomplex species. It is also seen on some species of the A.-steindachneri- and A.-cacatuoides-groups as well as a couple of other A.-regani-group species. On these species, however, the split bars are more extensive, ranging from the 4thto the 7th vertical bars.

 

[LBT]

For naive sob like myself can you explain what you mean by split bar. When I look at the species description on Mike's site it seems the split bar are the vertical lines that split mid way down forming upside down trees but when i look at the fishes i see female with bars and the male without bars.

Or are the 'split' bars when the vertical bars have breaks in it but in any case i'm not even seeing that.

There is only one reference to split bars in the species description and it is not even clear to me what is is calling a split bar.
--
I went through tom's picture of all the cf eunotus pictures and a few of htem were stressed but i still couldn't really see what this split bar was you are mentioning. He has a lot of pictures for Huanta and Shishita - or is the 'split' bar when the lateral bar is broken up and the vertical split bar it mentions something totally different ?
---

Here is the text:




Apistogramma-eunotus-Subcomplex
In addition to features seen on all species in the A.-eunotus-complex, the species of the A.-eunotus-subcomplex are characterized by a comparatively higher, even to slightly serrated, dorsal fin (1). Males commonly possess round tails, colored orange in parts. Some species can develop one or two caudal fin extensions. An orange spot at the insertion of the pectoral fin is characteristic of this subcomplex (2). Many, but not all species of the A.-eunotus-subcomplex develop one or more split vertical bars on the posterior half of the flanks when in threat display. These splits are formed from scales that become light colored in the 5th, 6th and rarely 7th vertical bars below the lateral band (3). Split vertical bars are not unique to this A.-eunotus-subcomplex species. It is also seen on some species of the A.-steindachneri- and A.-cacatuoides-groups as well as a couple of other A.-regani-group species. On these species, however, the split bars are more extensive, ranging from the 4thto the 7th vertical bars.

If I understand correctly, mind you I'm Dutch, so things can get lost in translation,
it's about the example i inserted as a picture. The dark band between his caudal and anal fin is a reversed V.

 

[Frank Hättich]

The splits are light colored lines or gaps within the otherwise dark vertical bars:

 

[LBT]

The biggest "problem" , or actually the biggest fun is this: I bought these fish at a very reputable LFS. One of the best in the Netherlands. The owner and his staff know their stuff. They sell them as Apistogramma cf. moae. Their information about the fish is: collection site: Rio Yurua Peru.
But if you look at them they have a lot of the characteristics of A. cf. eunotus. Eunotus is a large complex with transitional forms and the characteristics are very diverse even within a population. Sometimes A. moae is placed in the eunotus complex. I just follow Mike Wise's advice. They could be cf. moae or cf. eunotus. If the collection site truelly is Rio Yurua Peru, cf. moae is better fitting. But the fish have a lot of cf. eunotus, I admit. I guess we will never be completly sure.
Perhaps Apistogramma cf. moae aff. eunotus or Apistogramma cf. eunotus aff. moae is an option? (I'm kidding)