Help with Apistogramma info, sexing and ID.

[Bramgroet]

Oke then can we know the color variation? And is €22 overpriced for these fish ?

 

[Mike Wise]

I will agree with Frank on this one. A. sp. Nanay was a name given to this undescribed cruzi-subcomplex species that entered the hobby as in 1998. Unfortunately Dr. Römer mixed the name up with A. orteagai and labeled this species as A. sp. Nanay in CA1.

As for A. caetei, most books discuss this species, but most describe a closely related species (A. cf. caetei Rotwangen/Red-cheeks). I haven't seen or heard of any caetei-complex species in the hobby for several decades. Whichever actual species it is (and it is not Rotwangen) it is a white-/clearwater species and relatively non-problematic breeders. Males are 'casually polygamous' like many regani-group species. I, personally, would rather have A. caetei forms than the A. sp. Nanay-like species.

 

[Frank Hättich]

Oke then can we know the color variation?

As I said earlier, to be sure that they are in fact A. sp. Nanay, they need to show their diagnostic features clearly (yellow pectorals and red/orange eyering), which they may not do in the tanks of the LFS because of less than optimal water parameters or other sources of stress. However, even if we know that they are A. sp. Nanay it may still be impossible to tell which form they are.

And is €22 overpriced for these fish ?

If they are wild caught the price is ok for me.

 

[Bramgroet]

I haven't seen or heard of any caetei-complex species in the hobby for several decades. Whichever actual species it is (and it is not Rotwangen) it is a white-/clearwater species and relatively non-problematic breeders.

So they are pretty rare. Personally i like the doll grown specimens of caetei more then the full grown pictures of the A. Sp. nanay. But how do I know if they are male or female?

 

[MacZ]

I haven't seen or heard of any caetei-complex species in the hobby for several decades.

As I know you have the connections, does your statement include the european hobby or only refer to north america?

 

[Frank Hättich]

Two years ago a friend of mine kept a caetei form (in Germany). I don't know whether he still has them.

 

[MacZ]

Two years ago a friend of mine kept a caetei form (in Germany). I don't know whether he still has them.

Echoes what I know. There are some in circluation here, so I'd not say they are super rare, but also nothing you find any day of the week. Usually in the 20-25€-range you have uncommon but not rare species.

 

[anewbie]

Several stores in europe claim to be selling them now like this one:

Apistogramma caetei 3 - 4 cm - Univers Aquatique

www.universaquatique.fr

or maybe i'm totally confused.
and this one in usa:

x1 Pair Package - Apistogramma Caetei Cichlid Pair

Best seller at www.YourFishStore.com - This Package Includes x2 Fish. Care Level: Easy - ModerateTemperature: 70 to 85FpH: 6 to 6.5 Region:The distribution range of A. baenschi is only fragmentarily known, for it is a relatively new species first collected by Japanese aquarists as late as 2002...

yourfishstore.com

--
Of course i know that at least one person is trying to sell blue-steel as caetei.

 

[Bramgroet]

Several stores in europe claim to be selling them now like this one:

That one is A. Sp. steel blue a man made species this fish does not occur in the wild.

or maybe i'm totally confused.
and this one in usa:

These ones are $180 and the fish on the picture look more like A. Cf. Agassizii

I am doubting which fish to get I could order apistogramma sp. D39 and Apistogramma sp. gillspot which I would both like but I don’t know if I would get both sexes. The lfs said we could ask them for a pair but that will not guarantee that it is a pair since I order them from 3 cm. I could take a gamble but I might want to order 3 or 4 which will get pretty expensive. I think I will wait cause there is not really a species I can take care of or want.

Cause I saw lineata but they need softer water same story for A.uaupesi, A. Iniridae and A. Elizabethae.

 

[Bramgroet]

I see now that I can get my hands on some definite males and females wild A. Bitaenita for €12. Could this work or is my water not soft enough? Also if it possible how many should I get?

 

[Mike Wise]

Maybe I missed reading it somewhere, but what size is the aquarium? Yes, A. bitaeniata will live in your water values and might even successfully reproduce in them. Personally, I would go with A. caetei, but that's just me.

 

[Bramgroet]

Maybe I missed reading it somewhere, but what size is the aquarium?

It is a 200 liter, 100cm x 40cm x 50cm i have a spare 50 liter(50cm x 30cm x 30cm).

Yes, A. bitaeniata will live in your water values and might even successfully reproduce in them.

Well since i have a spare tank i might reproduce but that's not the main goal. I do want a couple or a harem (not sure if that's the right word in english) if they produce to much fry i might separate the male and females. I do have some (bad) pictures of the A. bitaenitiata from the lfs but you have a lot of A. cf. bitaenitiata so i dont know which species it is. I could ask for the catch location.

I also really like the A.caetei but the thing is I don't know if they have males and females I think that they only have males. How do I know if it's a female or a male A.caetei and the same for A. bitaeniata.

I will post some pictures below.

 

[Bramgroet]

Here

 

[Jacobus]

Then they are probably A. sp. Nanay.

As I suspect to have bought fish from the same LFS Bramgroet is referring to, and even from the same consignment of WC "ortegai's" he sent pictures of, I should like to bring in new pictures of one of these fish, from my own tank (100x40x45 cm). Only to get as close as possible to a definite ID of these fish. The pictures show the (or should I say a) male. The dominant fish. The other two I bought are hopefully females I hardly ever get to see as they are continually chased off by the "alpha-man". The pectoral fins have an orange base. The ventral fins are orange. The tail fin is also orange but somewahat less intensively coloured.
I am very curious what the forum's experts ID verdict is.

 

[Frank Hättich]

It's for sure not a form of A. (cf.) ortegai but rather a cruzi-subcomplex species. If you read the thread, you see that the further conclusion that Bramgroet's fish are A. sp. Nanay mostly relies on the supposed catch location. However, if it is wrong (i.e. not Rio Nanay), these fish can also be some other cruzi-subcomplex species and unfortunately I'm not able to tell which one exactly.

 

[Jacobus]

Thanks a lot. Yes, when reading the entire thread, the catch location seems to be Rio Nanay. I'll try to check again.
When I see pictures of A. sp. nanay I don't see all that many similarities with this fish, though I realize that polychromism might explain that.

 

[Frank Hättich]

When I see pictures of A. sp. nanay I don't see all that many similarities with this fish, though I realize that polychromism might explain that.

As I said, your fish (as well as Bramgroet's) can also be another cruzi-subcomplex species. The conclusion that it probably is A. sp. Nanay, mostly depends on the supposed catch location. However, we all know that the locations told to us by the trade are "not always" reliable.
Males of A. sp. Nanay are distinguished from other cruzi-subcomplex species mainly by their yellow pectoral fins in conjunction with orange/red rings around the eyes as shown in this picture (not mine):

Does your male show these features at least sometimes?

 

[Mike Wise]

Jacobus, your fish look very much like the original import of A. sp. Nanay collected and imported by Julio Melgar in 1998. Like yours, the red eye ring is less prominent and the caudal spot is more rectangular.

 

[Jacobus]

Frank, Mike, thanks for your replies.
To start with the eyes: no, I cannot say I have seen a trace of yellow, orange,red, around them, ever, until now.
(the 3 of them are in my possession for just over 3 weeks now)
As for the pectoral fins: these are colourless. Only the base is orange.

 

[Frank Hättich]

As Mike said, your fish are certainly similar to the original A. sp. Nanay. However, if your dominant male will never show yellow pectoral fins or red/orange eye-rings, I'm sceptical...
Here's a photo Mike kindly gave to me some time ago. It shows the original A. sp. Nanay with red eye-ring and yellow pectorals: