German Blue Rams keep dying

[Arnold]

Hi I have a group of young German Blue Rams, I did have 15 currently but did have more. But I've noticed again that some have clamped up tails. I've tested the water and parameters are all good. Got a large sponge filter and some moss to lower pH. I've also medicated the tank with anti internal bacteria twice now and I'm still losing some. Any ideas?

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Hi I have a group of young German Blue Rams, I did have 15 currently but did have more. But I've noticed again that some have clamped up tails. I've tested the water and parameters are all good. Got a large sponge filter and some moss to lower pH. I've also medicated the tank with anti internal bacteria twice now and I'm still losing some. Any ideas?

They are unhealthy things now unfortunately. I really like them, but I wouldn't buy commercially raised fish.

They need soft, clean warm water, how hard is the water?

Can we have a full tank shot? It just makes life easier for us.

Cheers Darrel

 

[anewbie]

Hi I have a group of young German Blue Rams, I did have 15 currently but did have more. But I've noticed again that some have clamped up tails. I've tested the water and parameters are all good. Got a large sponge filter and some moss to lower pH. I've also medicated the tank with anti internal bacteria twice now and I'm still losing some. Any ideas?

If everything is all good why are they dying? Perhaps your view of 'parameters are all good' doesn't match what the fish expects or think is good.

Are these frys, 1 inch or young adults. Is the tank cycled? The tails being clamped suggest either aggression or they don't agree with you that parameters are all good.

 

[MacZ]

Template for disease/parasite/death cases

This template contains the most important questions to be answered when dealing with sick or dead fish to find causes and advise on treatments. Please copy and paste into a new thread and answer the questions as precise as possible. Water parameters should be given in numbers. "Fine" or "good"...

apistogramma.com

please copy the template and fill it out. Also water parameters in numbers and a full tank picture and if possible a short (30 sec) video of the fish or high resolution pictures

 

[Arnold]

 

[Arnold]

Which animal is affected? Species, sex, age? (If age unknown: How long have you had the fish?) GERMAN BLUE RAMS

What are the symptoms? Any changes in look, behaviour, bearing, buoyancy, fecies? CLAMPED TAIL

How long has the problem been going on? (Timeline?) MONTH

What's the full stocking list?
GERMAN BLUE RAMS
OTTOCINLUS


Any changes in the behaviour of the other fish? No change

What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!) 61cm W, 51cm H, 32cm deep

How long is the tank running?
3+ YEARS

Have there been any changes in the past 2 months? New animals, plants, decoration? SOME MORE BOGWOOD

What food are the fish fed? How much, how often?
FLAKES (MONDAY)
FROZEN (WEDNESDAY)
PELLETS (FRIDAY)

What is the temperature?
29 DEGREES

What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH: 7-7.5 IN THE SHOP WHERE 8.0
GH: 100+
KH: 100+
EC/TDS:
NO3: 5PPM MAKE
NO2: 0
NH3/4: 0

What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?) Test strip's

Are you using water conditioners or any other additives? (e.g. dechlorinators, humic/blackwater extracts, fertilizers)
Dechlorinator: Aquadesign
Spagnum Moss to lower pH/hardness
Rooibos tea for tannins

What filter are you using? (Canister, sponge, internal, mattenfilter?)
Large sponge filter for tanks up to 200ltr
1 small Hugger sponge filter with spagnum moss in it

What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)
Waterchanges 50% every 2 weeks
Filter cleans every 4 weeks

Have there been any chemicals used around the tank? (Cleaning agents, room sprays, wall paint, adhesives...)
Nope

Have there been any pesticides, fungicides or herbicides used around the tank? Nope

Are there any unknown animals in the tank? Nope

What has been done already? (Timeline!)
Two doses of NT Labs Anti internal bacteria
If so, what meds have been used? (Timeline!)
Started 2 dose of NT labs anti internal bacteria treatment yesterday

Please provide pictures/videos of the fish AND tank in question!

 

[MacZ]

I did have 15 currently but did have more

What size is the tank? (Preferrably dimensions, not volume!) 61cm W, 51cm H, 32cm deep

You are keeping that many adult M. ramirezi in a tank that small? I just hope this is a typo. If not they are under immense social stress. This leads to immunesystems collapsing and the fish succumbing to parasites and infections of all sorts.

What's the maintenance regimen? (Waterchange volume and frequency, thorough cleaning of filters/substrate?)
Waterchanges 50% every 2 weeks

With that many fish in that tank size 50% 2x a week is more appropriate with this stocking )provided the numbers are correct.

What are the water parameters? (Please note all known tank and source water parameters in numbers! Not "good", "optimal" or "perfect"!)
pH: 7-7.5 IN THE SHOP WHERE 8.0
GH: 100+
KH: 100+
EC/TDS:
NO3: 5PPM MAKE
NO2: 0
NH3/4: 0

What test kit did you use? (liquid, strips, store service?) Test strip's

Test strips are very rough measuring and tend to be very prone to measuring errors. In fact I would not trust any of these numbers. Usually the strips only tell you if something is present or not and if it's high or low.

What has been done already? (Timeline!)
Two doses of NT Labs Anti internal bacteria

This is Chloramine T, how is that stuff even allowed to be sold? Otherwise never use a med without indication. E.g. in many cases a medication may suppress the immune response and make the fish defenseless against whatever is in the tank with them.

Dechlorinator: Aquadesign

And in combination it's rendered utterly pointless.

I'll be clear. I do not want to be rough or unfair, but if in fact all your answers in the anamnesis were to your best knowledge and completely factual, you will lose the rest of the fish too until two remain.

 

[Mike Wise]

You realize that commercially bred Rams tend to be 'overly delicate'? My preference is wildcaught specimens. Not a pretty as juveniles but they do color up as adults.

 

[Arnold]

The tank they are in atm is a grow out tank and is 80ltrs. They are juviniles not adults and will be moved to a 240ltr when they mature to adults.

 

[MacZ]

The picture showed quite sizeable specimens, and two under the wood showing display colouration, so this was far from clear.

A 80 liter (I had several that size) becomes too small at a point as a growout. In my opinion you passed the point to move them.

 

[Arnold]

They definitely ain't adults. Also what treatment would you recommend that would be good for internal bacteria issues?

 

[Hanzle]

Ik heb al herhaaldelijk commentaar geleverd op apistoos en waarom ze sterven "ongeacht de wateromstandigheden". Ben al jaren terug in een aquariumzaak geweest waar toevallig net de import uit Zuid-Amerika binnenkwam. Ook veel Apistoos. De zakken waarin alle vissen zaten hadden een lichtblauw gekleurd water en dat vondt ik vreemd. Een documentaire van een Duitse televisie omroep op youtube bevestigde wat ik al vreesde. De vissen worden vanaf voldoende in water "bewaard" met waterwaarden die de oirsprinkelijke habitat evenaren. Eenmaal klaar voor transport wordt daar een middeltje toegevoegd om evt ziektebeelden te verbloemen en uitbraken in een transportzak niet al te massaal te laten uitbreiden. Dit middeltje maakt de vissen zwak en steriel en dan moet ze nog een x aanpassen bij de groothandel, de aquariumwinkel en bij ons thuis. Ik heb zeer veel apistoos en ook gehad, maar dit is altijd weer het probleem. Ze houden het een aantal maanden vol, als je geluk hebt, en dan sterven ze. Symptomen zijn bijna altijd hetzelfde:
- Vreemde plek bij anus/geslachtsdeel die lijkt op een ontsteking
- snel ademen volgt
- opgeblazen vissen, obstipatie
- ogen beginnen uit te puilen omdat er ook niet meer gegeten wordt.
De vrouwtjes hebben er ook meer last van dan de mannetjes, die komen er nog wel eens doorheen.
Een paar corydoras van hyphessobrycon heeft ook wel eens maar.....wel eens, een enkeling.
Ik heb de perfecte oplossing gevonden:
Koop je vissen bij een kweker...iemand die thuis kweekt, hobbymatig. Niet bij een conventionele kweker die ook preventief middeltjes toevoegd om de uitval te lastig. Deze vissen zijn minimaal F1 en vele malen sterker. Goedkoper vaak ook niet.

Wat wij als liefhebbers r aan kunnen doen is alleen niet kopen bij de kwekers en niet meer in de handel. We zijn dan wel afhankelijk van gezelschappen die nieuwe soorten aanvoeren vanuit de oorspronkelijke habitat onder normale transportomstandigheden en vast meer betalen, ik ben voor.

Ik wil geen dode apistoos meer uit vangen

 

[Hanzle]

De vertaling laat te wensen over maar men snapt waarschijnlijk wel wat er bedoelt wordt

 

[Hanzle]

Ps: onder de microscoop bij de dierenarts/specialist liet een dode apisto een ingewanden setje zien wat volledig verstopt was.
De dierenarts gaf ook aan dat de kwaliteit vd (import) vissen slecht is, vooral sinds er een bepaald Aziatisch land mee bezig is

 

[anewbie]

A few comments:
a) The water is pretty darn hard for rams (domestic or wc) if it is 100+ kh/gh.

Can they live in this water - i suppose they might but they won't be able to breed and they might not live.

This is a delicate fish that does best with tds below 100 and 40 is better.

b) The temp is on the warm side - not too warm but 27 would be better.

c) Too many fishes in a small container.

With water that hard i think i would give up on south american dwarf cichild and keep endlers.

 

[MacZ]

They definitely ain't adults. Also what treatment would you recommend that would be good for internal bacteria issues?

Clamped fins are not a sure sign of bacterial infections. Actually quite unspecific, it can be part of more than 20 issues from stress to viral infections.

We need better pictures of the fish (I asked for this or a video) because your answers to the template didn't tell us much about what exactly is killing your fish, only that the holding conditions are subpar, which supports all kinds of possible pathogens.

 

[Hanzle]

Ik heb een groep van 10 ramirezies in de dichte plante gezelschapsbak bij een kh van 6 en een ph van 7.6 bij een temperatuur van 24 graden. Geen toevoegingen, geen waterverbeteraars en zeker geen co2. Krijg de dag diepvries cyclops en rode mok. Ze zitten er al ruim een jaar in, geen overleden of andere grappen. Heb al meerdere nestjes jongen gehad waarvan 75% overleefde.
Ze kwamen van een hobbiekweker.

 

[dw1305]

Hi all,
@Arnold I agree with the others.

One of the great things about this forum is that you will always get an honest answer, it might seem harsh sometimes, but advice is always given with the best intentions.

Personally I'm not a very good fish keeper, but over time I've found mechanisms that mitigate for my lack of ability, and that keep the fish alive for longer.

Have a look at the <"Duckweed Index">, it is a technique for maintaining water quality in low tech tanks.

cheers Darrel

 

[Arnold]

A few comments:
a) The water is pretty darn hard for rams (domestic or wc) if it is 100+ kh/gh.

Can they live in this water - i suppose they might but they won't be able to breed and they might not live.

This is a delicate fish that does best with tds below 100 and 40 is better.

b) The temp is on the warm side - not too warm but 27 would be better.

c) Too many fishes in a small container.

With water that hard i think i would give up on south american dwarf cichild and keep endlers.

 

[Arnold]

All the shops around my area keep the rams at 29-31 degrees and a pH of 8.0. hence why I'm trying everything I can do to slowly lower the pH and hardness. That video shows the current Rams I have.