south american 75g with two pairs?

[ookluh]

HI all,

I am in the process of setting up a South American themed tank. 75 gallons (48x18x21 inches) or 284L (122x45.5x53 cm). I have this far, for better or worse, been using some AI models to try to help me plan. But I wanted to get real human experience/opinions.

Currently have:
12 Super Blue Kerri Tetras
8 Kali Tawa Rainbowfish (these are a dwarf variety)

Eventual plan/hope to add:
1 pair Bolivian Rams
2 pair apistos. Borelli as one, given more peaceful nature. Possibly fire red agassizii or a red shoulder macmasteri as second pair? Or cacatuoides.

Maybe later some pencilfish and/or kuhli loaches though not really hung up on these. Is this doable with plenty of cover? Currently have dragon stone, driftwood with moss, four coconut caves (two left and two right), and some plant cover (swords in back, crypts and anubias in middle/front). Expecting plant cover to provide a bit more cover as it grows in. Attached is a pic.

Current vision is to have rams in the open area in the middle, and a pair of apistos to each side. There is a narrow open lane behind the dragon stone as well.

If two apistos won't work, was also considering maybe a trio of apistos and adding a juvenile Electric Blue Acara?

 

[Mike Wise]

If you read topics on this site concerning mixing apisto pairs and mixing apisto pairs in a community setting you will find that most experienced apisto keepers consider this a bad idea.

 

[MacZ]

From my experience:

- If you want to combine Apistogramma with other dwarf cichlids it's best to go single specimens. Meaning a single male with others would work.
- If you go for more than one species of Apistogramma I quote @Mike Wise : single Males from species that look as different as possible.
- A. borellii are best kept at room temperature (~20°C), while the other species you named are best served with average tropical (~25°C).
- You name M. altispinosus. I would like to propose you get a group of 4-6 of those because they can (and in my opinion should) be kept in groups! And then leave it be. No second species.

Whatever you do, keep in mind: All dwarf cichlids have violent tendencies while brooding, so unless you keep a group of a single species prevent brooding by foregoing on buying pairs or females.

Edit: Ha, Mike was quicker and we are in agreement. In general not a good idea, true that.

 

[ookluh]

Thanks for both of your feedback. I had a feeling that might be the right answer (not doing two pairs). Was going to try to run the tank at 76F (24.5C) to find a compromise for both. But I can recomsider. Could a single male of agassizii plus a single male of another apisto work? And add the rams?

Or possibly a pair/trio of one species of apisto plus the rams?

Just trying to maximize interest and color (within reason)

 

[MacZ]

Could a single male of agassizii plus a single male of another apisto work?

Under the premise they are as far apart visually as possible. I'd still have a second tank at hand to separate them at any given time.

And add the rams?

Nope. Sorry.

Or possibly a pair/trio of one species of apisto plus the rams?

As I elaborated above: No. And in that case (couple/trio) any other bottom dwellers (catfish, loaches) are out as well.

Just trying to maximize interest and color (within reason)

If this was a Malawi tank, I'd be with you. But dwarf cichlids in general are at best material for a biotope-community without other bottomdwelling or norcturnal fish.

 

[ookluh]

Got it. Bummer, was imagining a lot more color and activity. Will have to rethink my options, thanks!

 

[MacZ]

You're welcome, sorry to be the bringer of bad news.

 

[anewbie]

I've found single male agassizii can be rather aggressive within a limited area. When i mentioned such in forum other (well at least one other) had observed a similar behavior. I've not had issues with single male borelli. Most of the domestic cockatoo i've kept had been passive but at least one (oddly enough a runt of a fish) turned out to be hyper aggressive. Weird but my wc keri seem to totally ignore frys as i had a group of f1 nijjensi do fairly well without much care at all beyond initial protection by the mother.

I've had success mixing very docile species in a 100+ gallon aquarium with 72 inch separation but it normally happens when they get moved out of their dedicated aquarium and dumped into the community for various reasons. I've had better success mixing cichild with totally different behavior even breeding them both in the same aquarium with some success. b. wavarni and b. cupido for example while on the large size for dwarf cichild have proven pretty passive to others. ivanacara b have also proven incredibly passive even when guarding eggs/frys. I have a pair of wc laetacara dors with my d39s in a 65 and they seem to occupy totally different parts of the tank but neither group have bred yet. THe laetacar dors ahve proven to be extremely timid and stay near the back and the d39 while not exactly aggressive have spread out across the front.

In truth i think you can mix laetacara dors with most fishes as long as they won't get attacked in a close encounter. I greatly prefer the wc ones to the tank raised ones but they have also proven quite a bit more timid.

 

[anewbie]

I was thinking about this - in a 100 (48x30) i have 5 wavarni and 6 a. norbert and they seem to have established a general position in the aquarium that appears to work. I have a 'pair' of norbert which have taken the far corner and no one will venture. The female in that corner is bright yellow and has been for a month but i've not noticed actual egg laying. The rest of them stay from the middle to the other corner (i feed both sides in the morning to allow them to keep their territory sep). I would estimate the aggressive pair territory at approx 12 to 20 x 24 - this is one of my more choppy tank in terms of excessive driftwood and leaves making it quite difficult to even observe what they are doing if they choose to hide (most of them stay in the open). The male will sometime wander around the tank but not in a particularly aggressive fashion while the female will sometime go to the back but never the other side and she is a bit more aggressive as you get near the edge. Even the dithers stay away from them so i presume there was at some point some aggression marking their area. They been together for over 4 months and so far none of the norberts or wavarni had passed and at this point at least 5 of the norberts are adults (one which was sold as a female might be a runt or young male - not 100% sure - it hangs on the other side under a leaf most of the time - it really likes the leaf as a small cave.

 

[ookluh]

I was thinking about this - in a 100 (48x30) i have 5 wavarni and 6 a. norbert and they seem to have established a general position in the aquarium that appears to work. I have a 'pair' of norbert which have taken the far corner and no one will venture. The female in that corner is bright yellow and has been for a month but i've not noticed actual egg laying. The rest of them stay from the middle to the other corner (i feed both sides in the morning to allow them to keep their territory sep). I would estimate the aggressive pair territory at approx 12 to 20 x 24 - this is one of my more choppy tank in terms of excessive driftwood and leaves making it quite difficult to even observe what they are doing if they choose to hide (most of them stay in the open). The male will sometime wander around the tank but not in a particularly aggressive fashion while the female will sometime go to the back but never the other side and she is a bit more aggressive as you get near the edge. Even the dithers stay away from them so i presume there was at some point some aggression marking their area. They been together for over 4 months and so far none of the norberts or wavarni had passed and at this point at least 5 of the norberts are adults (one which was sold as a female might be a runt or young male - not 100% sure - it hangs on the other side under a leaf most of the time - it really likes the leaf as a small cave.

Interesting, thanks for the feedback/anecdote. Maybe the heavy cover makes a big difference, plus a 100g is 33% bigger than a 75. I assume the wavarini get a pass since they are bigger and look different than an apisto, so may not be perceived as a territorial threat

 

[anewbie]

Interesting, thanks for the feedback/anecdote. Maybe the heavy cover makes a big difference, plus a 100g is 33% bigger than a 75. I assume the wavarini get a pass since they are bigger and look different than an apisto, so may not be perceived as a territorial threat

Iniitally the 4 young ones were chased a bit (they are smaller than the norberts right now) but after a couple of weeks they stopped and they haven't bothered them since. Also the norberts don't seem nearly as aggressive as some other species I've had. I had some wc cockatoo that were a terror with anything and everything in a 40B.