creating a 'breeding colony'

[aspen]

i think that most of us who are keepers and not real breeders, ie those of us who have some fry now and again but don't really actively breed our fishes on a wholesale level, are really just enjoying keeping our fish. i have put together what i hope will be a breeding colony with a pair of a. hongsloi. the tank is a 33 gal, densely planted with a light fishload with 5 cardinal tetras 2 mollies and a dwarf bushynose pleco (2", said to max out at 3"). filtration is a HOT magnum, with a spraybar and a co2 diffuser on the intake which i can use to limit flow.

i wonder if other members can describe their tanks which are in such a state, with tank size, other fish, and how successful it was/is and how long it has been running. i would hope that people would esp describe the fish they used which were not appropriate to be kept in such a tank with the species of dwarf they decided to try.

i have another 33 g tank which will not be planted for one of my pairs of elizabethae's, once i have raised a couple of spawns. what sized tank would be suitable for this species. romer suggests a 33 gal would be suitable for only a single pair, but i think as long as a single male is kept, the breeding females might number as many as 4 or even 5. any thoughts?

rick

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Rick,

I had a 30 gallon long packed with borellii before. It had 3 Java Moss covered coconut shell caves, 2 piles of Oak Leaves, a large piece of driftwood with 2 clumps of Java Moss and 2 Java Ferns, and 1 large Amazon Sword. At the time I sold off most of my borellii, this 30 gallon had 7 (3m4f) adult borellii, about 12 young adults. Two of the young adult females each had a batch of small fry.

Three generations in 1 tank! There was almost no aggression in this tank at all. Just an occasional short chase. In addition to the borellii, there were also 4 beckfordi Pencilfish and 2 Oto Cats. The pencilfish didn't eat the fry either (nobody ate anybody!) and I think the parents knew it because they tolerated the pencilfish close to the fry. I now keep a trio in a 10 gallon.

I also had 6 adult (3m3f) viejita with about 20 large fry and 20 small fry in a 30 gallon for quite a while! There was 1 dominant male that tolerated the other 2 males. This tank had the same stuff mentioned above, but was also severely overgrown with Java Moss. Actually, the dominant male spent most of his time hidden in the Java Moss, only coming out to feed and occasionally assert his authority.

I currently have 6 small adult (3m3f) wild caught Incas in a 30 and also 8 small adult (4m4f) wild caught alahualpa in another 30 gallon. So far so good, neither tank is overly aggressive. The alahualpa seem to be a little more aggressive than the Inca. The Incas are younger (they're just getting their adult colors).

When I get apistogrammas, I always like to start with 3 pair in a 30 gallon and then eventually select either a pair for a 10 gallon or a trio for a 20 gallon, but some species seem to have more interesting behavior in a larger group.

It's kind of my gut feeling that most apistos would do fine in a larger group if they were first put together when they were young adults in a properly setup tank. Older apistos that are strangers to each other would probably not mix so well.

Michael

 

[cootwarm]

I just wanted to add one more observation of my borellii and viejita. In both cases when the tank became too crowded, the fish stopped spawning until I thinned them out.

Michael

 

[apistodave]

colonies

I had a juru colony a long time ago in a 30. There was one male and at any give time about 6 fems that he was spawning with. No dithers, no cats. Just jurus. When Uwe came to get some we took the tank apart and counted 156 fish, incl one or two batches of fry, I forget exactly, but at least 60 adults!!! This tank, and this male, are the ones in the Atlas , pics of him have the red lava rock in, of course.And the grassy plants. Whenever one of us mentions "The Big Boy" we know which fish the other is talking about! He is now in the Berlin Museum of Natural History, soaking away in alcohol. A very exceptional fish, my best apisto ever!

 

[aspen]

yes david, that is what i would like to do with my hongsloi's except the tank will be jam-packed with plants, so it wil need a few algae eaters, and a few tetras, cause it is in my livingroom and won't really look right to guests without them. i guess we'll see how long those cardinals last as the population increases.

i will have to be creative with the elizabethae tank, i don't want plants, and i want it to be stained black with peat. AND i want it to look natural. sand, wood and rocks with tons of crevices in nooks of the wood. maybe pile driftwood like a 'log jam' type of look and drill 'caves' into larger pieces of wood instead of flowerpots.

your fish is on page 513 of romers. that is a nice looking fish. how large did he get, and how long did he live?

rick

 

[apistodave]

Try Oak or Beech leaves in there too maybe. He was about 4 inches and I had him for three and a half years. I have a three foot by two foot framed autographed copy of that pic on my living room wall! In the big pic you can look in the weeds around him and count all the other fish-- their hidden it's like one of those pics that you have to find stuff in>

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Rick,

Sounds like a couple cool tanks. I've got both species on my 'wish' list.

I use oak leaves too. I make 2 or 3 good piles and it looks cool (doesn't look littered). The apistos love to swim in and out of the piles. When company stops by and see my tanks, they're suprised that a bunch of tree leaves would look good in an aquarium.

I don't think you need to restrict yourself to 1 male as long as they are young and introduced to the tank together. I haven't had any problems with multiple males myself. With just 1 male you would miss some interesting behavior. I also find that with multiple males, the dominant male displays his fins and colors more often, to remind the other males who is boss! As long as the other males back off there is no excessive aggression. I don't think any of my male viejita have lost a single scale or torn fin.

The 3 male viejitas I had in the 30 gallon were put in the tank together as large juvies. Only the dominant male developed nice colors and long fins, the other 2 kept short fins and only showed a hint of their true colors. When the dominant male wasn't looking, the other 2 males would display their colors to the females, but they had short fins.

Michael

 

[apistodave]

I hate that trait --- lots of apistos do it- it makes it difficult sometimes to pic out the males in a growing tank--when customers complain I tell them to wait a few weeks and the male will develop his colors and fins. Borelli, viejita, mcmasteri, they all do that and trifas a liitle bit too.

 

[cootwarm]

Yes my borellii did the same thing.

BTW - Dave, I got these 6 viejita from you about a year ago!

Michael

 

[apistodave]

They've spawned successfully Mike?

 

[cootwarm]

Yup! I currently have about 20 juvies & about 20 large fry.

 

[aspen]

i would do the multiple male thing with a common species like borellii, but i'm hesitant to try that with either of the species i've got now. they are so hard to find and also so variable in morphs, that if the other male goes south too, then what the heck do you do? i have a problem now, with 3 female green pikes and no male. think i can find another one? i've put the word out maybe i'll hear back.

as for the hongsloi, romer describes them are 'waspish' and they sure are that. i'd like to see 2 males showing off but i don't want a replay of some of the other mis-haps i've had.

hongsloi are pretty easy to sex, but the elizabethae's were almost impossible. i took my best guess from the tank, and was lucky to get 2 pairs, although it took at least 3 weeks before i finally determined the second female was indeed a female after reading all of the descriptions i could find.

someone mentioned they have a tank with 7 males, i think they are doing the 1M/2F with a backup male strategy and storing all of the males in a tank with no females. i'll definately go that route with the elizabethae's. i've seen dwarfs decimate each other and it ain't pretty fishing out dead fish you just paid good bucks for. but the problem with storing a single male in a tank by himself is, that i find that solitary fish get nasty too.

they don't do well in tanks with larger s/a cichlids either ime, they cannot handle themselves with them, and they won't stay hidden. i guess that's their nature.

rick

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Rick,

I don't blame you there! I've been keeping an eye out for elizabethae for quite awhile now and haven't seen any.

It's still early to tell for sure, but I think my wild caught Inca would do well in a colony setup. They are just now developing their adult colors and a couple are occasionally courting. They are already turning out to be real charactors. I have 3pr in a 30 gallon and when I come to the tank to check them out, they dive deep into the Java Moss, then they all slowly emerge at the same time and all 6 come to the front glass and watch me watching them! (They're like my cats! They think they're going to be fed again!)

I have six 30 gallon tanks that I use to bring in new species of apistogramma. When I get a new species, I like to get 3 pair and let them settle in and sometime mature so I can observe their colors, behavior & personalities before selecting a trio (1m2f) for a 20 gallon long.

Once I'm ready to take a brreak from aquiring new species (when my condo is filled to capacity! :wink , I plan to use those six 30 gallon tanks for small colonies. So far I've decided on viejita & macmasteri for definite. I'm considering steindachneri, atahualpa, nijessini, Inca & Fresa as they all seem to have the temperment for it. But I've still yet to get any bitaeniata, agassizi, panduro, papagei & algodon II to try out. So far, for the last 4 selections, I'm leaning toward (hoping for) the Inca, Fresa, papagei & agassizi. I'll probably make my final decision in the fall. I'll use this thread to update my progress and results in the future.

By winter I should also have some web space to display some photos!

Michael

 

[cootwarm]

Hi Rick and All,

So far it appears that my Inca may work out in a colony. I have 3 pr of young adults in a 38 gallon. I was worried that the males wouldn't get along. But to my suprise, the 3 of them act like a bunch of college buddies! (always chasing the girls!) They're all extremely tolerant of each other. All 3 males are developing nice colors and extended dorsal fins. One has a larger body size than the other 2 and seems to be the dominant one. When he faces off with the others, he flares his fins and brightens up his colors. The others, in response also flare their fins and brighten their colors, but only momentarily. They don't really challange the dominant one, they quickly relax their fins and casually swim off. The only aggression is an occasional short chase (about 6 to 8 inches).

The males are harder on the females than each other. The males are ready to spawn, but the females aren't. So they are often harrassed, but again, just short chases. This is mostly my fault because I'm not doing anything to encourage them to spawn. For example I'm using just dechlored and aged tap water (no peat water)(pH 7.6; GH8; KH5) and not feeding them any live foods (flake food only). I'm too busy with summer projects to take time for raising BBS and extra water changes.

In September, I'll begin using peat water again, doing more frequent water changes, and fatten the females with CBWs. That'll be the real test if they will get along in a group.

Michael

 

[cootwarm]

unfortunately, my 3 pr are beginning to look like 4m2f! :cry:
Michael

 

[apistodave]

I think baenschi would be cool in a colony --on occasion I have seen the females turn nasty and kill males so I think a colony situation might level this trait out.

 

[cootwarm]

I guess we'll find out how they work out once a couple females have free swimming fry in the tank! I'll have to make sure I have a plan "B" ready on the standby!

 

[apistodave]

Let is know Mike!

 

[cootwarm]

Well things aren't working out too well in my atahualpa tank. There is no vicious beatings or carnage or anything like that, but I hardly get to see any fish activity. There is a very aggressive dominant pair that keeps everyone hidden. They remain hidden themselves, only coming out to chase another. The only time I get to see all of them is at feeding time. All though there are no beatings, there is also not much interesting behavior to observe.

I'll probably put a trio of atahualpa in a 20 gallon long and temporarily put a pair in a 10 gallon. (Probably the current dominant pair). I'll use the 30 gallon long to try another species. (Probably panduro)

Get this! In my atahualpa tank I also have a renegade Beckfordi Pencilfish! He chases everyone that moves! Especially the other beckfordi, but also the atahualpa! (Even the dominant ones!) Imagine that! A beckfordi pencilfish is king of the atahualpa tank! 8O I think they're kind of intimidated by his speed. He zips about the tank pretty quick and he occasionally hits kind of hard.

Michael

 

[Apistt_ed]

..

My beckfordii pencils have been running my tank for the longest! I have a pair that's been menacing the whole entire tank... I thought at first that maybe it was because they were bigger than the apistos I was housing them with (very young cacatuoides) so, I moved them when I made room in a larger tank with a large pair of Aggies, and the pencils were rulers of that tank too! Right up until the aggies had their clutch... and it put them back in their place... I've realized that beckfordi pencils get really really aggressive to get best "positions" for feedings, so they head-butt everything in the tank because the apistos don't expect that much from it until it's too late! but what it gives... it gets back in time times three!