Apistogramma sp. cristal (similar A. luelingi) male or female?

[Pictus]

Hey everyone,
I'm not sure about this little fellow here.
It's a F1 descendant of a couple I bought as Apistogramma sp. cristal and this species seems to be similar to A. luelingi.
Currently I just have got this fellow and a sure sister of him anymore and I would be very happy if he really would be a male.
He really looks like a male on this photos but his mother looked pretty malelike as well before she surprisingly got fry (videolink of her with fry:

).

Picture of his dad: https://imageshack.com/i/m9beb9j

Pictures of him: https://imageshack.com/i/idvkJ4Oij
https://imageshack.com/i/ey7CIa3Nj


Picture of his sister: https://imageshack.com/i/pb0hn3Lnj

Both are now about one and a half year old and they havent grown up very much.
I do not have any heater in the tank and I use rainwater and live food about 4 times a week (when they were younger more often of course).
Looking forward to a definite answer of my question!

best regards
Patrick

 

[Mike Wise]

If 1½ years old the male should be very easy to distinguish from the female by the high front spines on the dorsal fin. None of your photos are visible.

 

[Pictus]

Hey,
Now I've just posted the links, still not visible?

best regards
Patrick

 

[dwarfpike]

The seem to be working now. He doesn't have the black pectoral edging like she does, but you'd expect at that age to see the extended dorsal as Mike mentioned. Too confusing for this novice.

 

[ErtyJr]

To my very novice eyes they both appear female. When I sex apistogramma I generally look for signs of the female, which are the shorter first 3 rays of the dorsal, and black in the pelvic fins. I do not see any black in the pelvic fins but the picture is not very good for that, and it is not there 100% of the time anyways. However the first 3 rays are quite short.

 

[Gillie]

Very odd that there is no dorsal extension, but I do see extension in other finnage which is a good sign, but as Mike pointed out at the age you stated it should be very clear. May I ask why the tank is unheated? That could be hindering their development.

 

[peterclarke666]

both female but sp.crystal is actually apistogramma cf luelingi crystal only difference between luelingi and the crystals is the females have a lyre-tail

 

[Mike Wise]

My guess, based on the length of the caudal and ventral fin tips, is that it is a male, but I don't know why it has such a short dorsal. My male at the same age had noticeably longer front spines. I know that A. trifasciata raised in hard water tend to produce lower dorsal spines than those raised in softer water. Maybe the same is true for this species.

 

[Pictus]

Hallo,
@Gillie :
According to my information, the A. (cf) luelingi don't need that high temperature.
This tank is'nt colder than 22 degrees even in the winter.
They spawned around January 2013 and at this point the temperature was around 23 I think.
But after all I think it could had been helpful, if I would have added a heater to support the development of the fry because they were grown very slowly.
Currently the temperature is about 25.

best regards
Patrick

 

[Mike Wise]

If Cristal follows most other apistos, a brood raised at 22°C/72°F should produce ~90% females.

 

[Pictus]

So then I hope, that this picture shows a member of the 10% share.
Regarding to the pictures of the following link, it seems to be possible, that subadult A sp. cristal-males begin quite late with the Development of their front spines: http://jambo-bubu.jimdo.com/apistogramma/cacatuoides-gruppe/#PhotoSwipe1407357942097

best regards
Patrick

 

[Ekona]

Those photos do appear to show sub-adults without the extended spines - and in photos I was looking at adult males don't appear to have greatly extended spines anyway, that is, compared to other species in the complex? I think you have a male there and they are very nice looking. Good luck with them!

 

[Pictus]

Thank you Ekona.
Not compared to the entire complex, compared to A. sp cristal pictures from this website (its about the 8th species at the page)
best regards Patrick

 

[Pictus]

Hey everyone,
It seems as if they spawned.
The sure female is always around a coconut-cave in the rear right corner of the tank.
She uses the little upper hole as entrance and chases the male (the fish I was unsure about the sex) when he approaches. Just a bit wondering about her colour, she does'nt appar to be very yellow yet.
Nevertheless, I was always very confused about this other little fellow: His pelvic fins were quite black sometimes and he did'nt develop any really extended dorsal spines.
His caudal tips developed a bit but the caudal does'nt show any pattern.
Unfortunately I did'nt manage to shoot a usefull pic yet.

But after all there should'nt be a too high propability that there are 2 females ...
At the time there are the first larvaes visible, I'll be unbelievable happy!

best regards
Patrick

 

[ErtyJr]

Hey everyone,
It seems as if they spawned.
The sure female is always around a coconut-cave in the rear right corner of the tank.
She uses the little upper hole as entrance and chases the male (the fish I was unsure about the sex) when he approaches. Just a bit wondering about her colour, she does'nt appar to be very yellow yet.
Nevertheless, I was always very confused about this other little fellow: His pelvic fins were quite black sometimes and he did'nt develop any really extended dorsal spines.
His caudal tips developed a bit but the caudal does'nt show any pattern.
Unfortunately I did'nt manage to shoot a usefull pic yet.

But after all there should'nt be a too high propability that there are 2 females ...
At the time there are the first larvaes visible, I'll be unbelievable happy!

best regards
Patrick

It is possible, but at the same time don't get your hopes up to much. Females can sometimes lay eggs only in the presence of other females. But if they hatch you have a surefire answer =D

It has also been said in the absence of males females can sometimes change sex!

 

[Pictus]

Hi,
I heard about both of these facts.
This is why I really hope for larvaes.
I recently red about the 2nd, that this only had been watched at A. cacatouides. This is an interesting topic, is there some information about other species as well?

greets
Patrick

 

[Pictus]

Hello,
Unfortunately the eggs did not develop (I suspect the Pangio kuhli, which I'll give to another fishkeeper ), but today I was able to do some great shots of the pair and there should'nt be any questions left about their sexes.