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Apistogramma cf. Agassizii (netz) eggs don’t hatch

Apistoguy52

Active Member
Messages
263
While I can differentiate a number of the different males, I am unable to tell the girls apart. Mike and Frank are both part of a very small group that may be able to differentiate the females
 

Bramgroet

Member
Messages
166
Here are some pictures of the female for the people who might identify it.
 

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Mike Wise

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5 Year Member
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11,173
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Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
It is a Netz form. If really from the Rio Negro, then it probably needs a lower pH for breeding. If it were me, I would slowly lower the pH until spawns were viable and hatch.
 

Bramgroet

Member
Messages
166
How do you know the female is a netz? Am not 100 % sure if they are from the Rio negro. I checked today and the eggs were gone but she is still defending them?

But you don’t think the eggs don’t hatch because the water is not soft enough? I will bring the ph down but I think I can only go to 6 or 5,5. I am using oak extract on a small other tank were I will try to breed them it. I don’t want to go lower than a ph of 5,5 because I don’t trust the chemicals that much. I still need to figure out how much to use but I will be using it to prepare water changes. But I have the time cause it still needs to be cycled. I will also be using peat on that aquarium.

Bit off topic but will I be able to squeeze out some filter cotton ( I don’t know the correct English word for it) to get it cycled faster?
 
Last edited:

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,902
Location
Germany
I am using oak extract
I don’t trust the chemicals that much
As I'm pretty sure you either have Amtra or Easy-Life, you are pouring in diluted hydrochloric acid. That way yes, you can lower the pH, but you also raise conductivity and have to counter the KH before the acid actually lowers the pH. I suspect you will end up with a quite high conductivity. Also think about it - You will have to keep buying and adding that stuff at a price of usually about 20€ per liter of that stuff, while homemade humic substance brew with alder cones and rooibos is about 00.25€ per liter. Midway with about 2-4€ per portion you add to a tank would be peat.
The acid method is not advisable unless you already have the KH at 0 and then it's more feasable and much safer to use peat or botanicals instead of acid. And yes, I know we talked about RO and stuff, but I think you're moving in a direction that might bite you back.
 

Bramgroet

Member
Messages
166
As I'm pretty sure you either have Amtra or Easy-Life, you are pouring in diluted hydrochloric acid.
I have HS aqua.
You will have to keep buying and adding that stuff at a price of usually about 20€ per liter
I got a 350 ml bottle for free. It was offered to me so then I don’t say no.
while homemade humic substance brew with alder cones and rooibos is about 00.25€ per liter. Midway with about 2-4€ per portion you add to a tank would be peat.
The acid method is not advisable unless you already have the KH at 0 and then it's more feasable and much safer to use peat or botanicals instead of acid.
I have found that peat works the best and is the most reliable. I have found out that I can go to a ph of 6,5 and a kh of 3 with 250 grams that is not that much. I could add more but I need to buy some new again. But with alder cones i believe that they only lower the ph for a short time and also they only color the heater brown (which I do like). Tell me if I am wrong. But I will try to go lower with just botanicals. But I think I can not go lower than a ph of 6 with botanicals. I don’t know anything about rooibos that would be like the Thea bags right but biological made.

I am new to using chemicals and I am still doing research if I will use I will use it in a different aquarium where there is in the start no fish until I have figured out what works and if it even works.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,902
Location
Germany
I have HS aqua.
Same mixture.
I got a 350 ml bottle for free. It was offered to me so then I don’t say no.
for free is always of interest.
I have found out that I can go to a ph of 6,5 and a kh of 3 with 250 grams that is not that much. I could add more but I need to buy some new again.
Correct, peat gives you the most bang for our buck.

Whichever method you use, you will have to add more after a number of waterchanges one way or the other. Peat has to be replaced after 2-4 weeks depending on the water you use, botanicals release humic substances until they have decomposed to mulm, but less and less. The visible stuff is washed out after a week or two. I add two liters of brew with the weekly waterchange and extra leaf litter with it, works great.

To get the pH significantly down effectively without raising conductivity peat works roughly up to a KH of 5°. Botanicals barely work as long as the KH is above 1°, 0.5 is the most you get out of them at higher KH. But one has to account for the fact peat and botanicals are natural products, they can vary a lot in quality.

Acid is most useful as a finish to top up when you need extra low pH (like 4 and lower), when it doesn't matter anymore that you raise the conductivity.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,902
Location
Germany
I don’t know anything about rooibos that would be like the Thea bags right but biological made.
I use simple pure organic rooibos teabags with no aroma additives from my supermarket. I go through a 1,50€ pack in three months. The pH-effect is not very pronounced (same as with botanicals), but it adds a great colour and has anti-bacterial properties.
 

Bramgroet

Member
Messages
166
I use simple pure organic rooibos teabags with no aroma additives from my supermarket. I go through a 1,50€ pack in three months. The pH-effect is not very pronounced (same as with botanicals), but it adds a great colour and has anti-bacterial properties.
I will buy it once.


Whichever method you use, you will have to add more after a number of waterchanges one way or the other. Peat has to be replaced after 2-4 weeks depending on the water you use, botanicals release humic substances until they have decomposed to mulm, but less and less. The visible stuff is washed out after a week or two. I add two liters of brew with the weekly waterchange and extra leaf litter with it, works great.
I have a lot of leaf litter just laying I add it slowly in the tank. But do you only use RO and botanicals and how many botanicals do you use I also add that brew once every week or every two weeks. My peat has to be replaced now cause de KH and PH are going up again every batch is useful for 4 weeks. I use super peat from sera it works good but I think it cost a bit to much do you have a tip which peat to use that works as good, is cheaper and is buyable in bigger packages.


Botanicals barely work as long as the KH is above 1°, 0.5 is the most you get out of them at higher KH.
Then is the question how to get the KH under 1 degree? The KH is 3 so I don't have a to long way to go. I could add more peat I use 250 gram which according to the package could be added double. But I heard that using more only adds time to the time of use and not how good it works.
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,902
Location
Germany
I have a lot of leaf litter just laying I add it slowly in the tank. But do you only use RO and botanicals and how many botanicals do you use
Excellent. I count leaf litter as a form of botanical. I add 5-10 leaves every 2-3 weeks.
I use 100% RO with the brew and the leaves.
The recipe:
2 liters of RO (boiling)
10-20 alder cones (can be used 2-3 times if dried inbetween uses)
5-10 leaves
2-4 bags of rooibos
Pour the boiling RO over the botanicals, let sit for at least 2-4 hours. If you want it especially strong leave it for 24-48 hours. As you see the numbers can vary as the only consistent ingredients are the water and the tea.
My peat has to be replaced now cause de KH and PH are going up again every batch is useful for 4 weeks. I use super peat from sera it works good but I think it cost a bit to much do you have a tip which peat to use that works as good, is cheaper and is buyable in bigger packages.
Yep, the Sera peat is quite expensive. The Eheim peat is a bit cheaper but not a lot. You could get white peat (witte turf) without fertilizer addition from a garden center. The 10 kg bags go a long way for little money. You only add some in a filter media bag and that's it. You know the drill. How much exactly you will have to experiment.
Anyhow, long term peat is not ecologically sustainable. Just as a hint if that matters to you. One of the reasons I stick to RO and botanicals. I have waste water, but still more sustainable than destroying peat bogs.
Then is the question how to get the KH under 1 degree?
Peat counters some of the KH, but in the end dilution (RO, rainwater, distilled water) is your best bet.
But I heard that using more only adds time to the time of use and not how good it works.
The problem is rather that any peat, botanicals and other organic matter causes oxygen depletion in the beginning, when microorganisms start to colonise them.
There is the option of using a peat cannon, which is basically a piece of drain pipe you fill with densely packed peat and then let water pour through it like in a coffee filter into a vat or a drum. But I can tell you, it makes a whole mess.
That's what we used in the 80s and 90s when RO-units where still unattainable for non-commercial use and the few available ones were industry standard for several thousand bucks.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
564
Location
San Francisco
Restating what Mac said, your problem is you need both low conductivity and low pH. If you add enough HCl to overcome the KH, you'll have low pH with higher conductivity.

The solution is to start with RO and add acid. Yes you can lower the pH with botanicals over time, but you can't control how low it gets and how fast.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
564
Location
San Francisco
Well, then I guess peat might be your only option, though I don't endorse it for the same reasons as Mac. I have done it before, made a miniature peat cannon out of an inverted 4L bottle and some filter floss. It will lower the pH, probably won't change the hardness much if at all.

Do you have a TDS meter?
 

MacZ

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,902
Location
Germany
but you can't control how low it gets and how fast.
Yes and no.
If you do regular waterchanges you end up at roughly 5 pH. Never seen a tank go lower than 4.5 with that method. That was my rock bottom and for Rio Negro or upper Orinoco wild caughts that is a good level.

But time... it takes months to get there. My curent tank was an upgrade and I used a lot of the material from the old tank. when just set up and the fish added back in after 8 hours the TDS were just as low as before, but the pH was up at 6 from a previous 5.
That's definitely the downside. You need patience. That's why it's a great method for displays, but not for breeding tanks.

So I agree: For the time being peat is the top choice here.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
564
Location
San Francisco
Right, what I meant was: If you think pH is a limiting factor and you want to lower it from 6.5 to 4.5, you can't do it at will with botanicals alone. It takes a lot of time and it might not get there. And if your KH is sufficiently high, you won't get there at all. You already know this, just clarifying my point.
 

Bramgroet

Member
Messages
166
TDS meter
I don’t only GH I could buy one but not the best it would be a 10-30 € one.

I have done it before, made a miniature peat cannon out of an inverted 4L bottle and some filter floss. It will lower the pH, probably won't change the hardness much if at all.
I do it in the filter I don’t understand how you use it.

For the time being peat is the top choice here.
I have used peat for a long time and I went to a 7,5 ph to a stable 6,5 with peat so that positive but I don’t now if it is even possible to lower the ph more. I will add more peat. And once a week after the water change at a brew. I can prepare the changing water. Is that so dangerous. I feel like I have it more in the hand then right?
 

Bramgroet

Member
Messages
166
2 liters of RO (boiling)
10-20 alder cones (can be used 2-3 times if dried inbetween uses)
5-10 leaves
2-4 bags of rooibos
Pour the boiling RO over the botanicals, let sit for at least 2-4 hours. If you want it especially strong leave it for 24-48 hours. As you see the numbers can vary as the only consistent ingredients are the water and the tea.
I could do this with boiling aquarium water with a lower ph gh and kh than tap water. Is it advisable to use more peat so maybe 300 grams or more just figuring that out or won’t it change anything. I hope this helps these fish also I like the brown water. For me it can get a lot darker then now.
I will make this brew thanks a lot for helping again. (I do really enjoy learning things about the hobby. Where I live I can’t get in touch with people to talk and discuss the job hobby. I can only talk and discuss the hobby on forums or a little in de lfs.)

So now I will try to get the kh down so then the ph will get down with peat and botanicals. This will take a lot of time and trying. But we will see if I manage to do it.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
564
Location
San Francisco
I don’t only GH I could buy one but not the best it would be a 10-30 € one.
Even a cheap one is better than nothing. You may find that the conductivity of your tap water fluctuates, so it will be good to correlate it with breeding success. At the very least, you'll know whether or not your water is in a permissive regime.

I do it in the filter I don’t understand how you use it.
Cut off the bottom of the the 4L bottle. Drill two holes in the lid and turn the bottle upside down. Stuff filter floss at the bottom, and add 4 - 5 inches of peat on top. Pour water over the top like you're brewing coffee (cold brew). I have a 5 gallon bucket and cut a hole in the lid to suspend the 4L bottle and let the water drip through.

I can treat about 30 or 40 gallons of water this way before I need to replace the peat. As the peat gets saturated, it drips more slowly, but it still works.

have used peat for a long time and I went to a 7,5 ph to a stable 6,5 with peat so that positive but I don’t now if it is even possible to lower the ph more. I will add more peat. And once a week after the water change at a brew. I can prepare the changing water. Is that so dangerous. I feel like I have it more in the hand then right?

The answer is yes, you can run it over more peat, but it is a lot of work. Maybe treat the incoming water first but still keep peat in the filter.
 

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