Apisto SP. steel blue

[tjudy]

I think you guys are far from the true topic.

The topic is a discussion about the 'ethics' of hybridization...

Soon or later, hybrids are gonna kill the hobby.

How? What could the existance of a hybrid fish do to an industry the size of this one? The fact is, the most popular and PROFITABLE fish in the aquarium hobby are hybrids... mollies, guppies, platies, and swordtails. Tack on discus and you have a whole hobby sector based upon hybridization (yes I know that there is a current popularity for wild discus, but many are getting them to cross into their domestic strains).

This is partially due to good breeders like we all are, who spend time on SELECTIVE BREEDING.

SELECTIVE BREEDING is a part of the problem if you are a hobbyist who is trying to maintain genetic integrity. Please go read these threads:

http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=478&highlight=selective+breeding
http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=527&highlight=selective+breeding

Hybridation relates to TWO different genus that are crossed together to create a new (disgusting) fish.

Dictionary definition: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, esp. the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species or races.

This definition, taken literally, would mean that a 'triple-red' cockatoiodes is a hybrid....

We all have the capability to act as gods and create new genus. You all know what it's like when we play gods.

No we don't. We have the ability to place fish of different types in an artificial environment, where they may or may not spawn. We cannot create a new species.. nor an entire genus for that matter.

Sterile fishes, misaligned mouth, weakened generations, sensitivity to diseases, etc.

Other than the sterile fishes, which is what occurs with most hybridizations between truly different species, the maladies listed are more frequently associated with selective line breeding within a strain. Hybridization between two close genetic types, like difference races of Apistogramma cackatoiodes, increases genetic variability and generally creates healthier stock. That is why angel breeders and discus breeders want wild fish....

The LFS staff don't care about ethics. They will tell you everything you want to hear just to sell you the fish. They will tell you it's a pure species, a new genus, if that's what you need.

Don't shop there. If all of the LFS in your area are that way, then I feel sorry for you. I know a lot of LFS owners and workers who are far more knowledgable that the average, and even many advanced, hobbyists. I spent 10 years in aquarium retail... you are not describing me with your comments.

Let's say you get a spawn from them. Are you gonna sell or feed them to other fishes? Ask you the question because, you're creating the demand for these. I'm definitely with the "purists" for which the words "Pure" and "Quality" sounds good to their ears

I, and noone I know who breeds dwarf cichlids, purposefully tries to hybridize species in order to create a demand for a new fish. I have, and will do so again, try to hybridize fish in order to clarify the designation of species or subspecies. The resulting offspring woud certainly not be sold, but they might find their way into a community tank where they look good and will not be used for breeding. (They have to grow up in order to determine if they are sterile hybrids or not.) That practice is accepted in the scientific community for the purpose of taxonomic clarification.

We cannot keep a 'pure' strain of fish in captivity and have it remain the same as wild for more than a few generations. Population genetics does not work that way. If you buy a single pair of wild fish you are immediately dealing with a genetic bottleneck that is the same as if every fish of that species were wiped off the Earth except for THAT pair. All of the genetic variablity that makes up a population's gene pool cannot exist in just two fish. If you import a thousand fish and dedicate your room to them, work your hardest to make sure that you make no artificial selection among them, then you still will end up with different gene frequencies because the selective pressures in the wild are totally different than in captivity.

You know what is more likely to kill the hobby? The few hobbyists who would like to see the industry regulated so that hybrids like 'steel blue' do not end up on the market are going to eventually get a law passed that more strictly regulates the import of fish. Once that precedent is set, the anti-pet organizations will use it to stop the import of fish altogether (they have already tried). What is more important to you (be honest), getting nice wild pure strains of fish that you can enjoy in your hobby, or stopping the practice of hybridization?

 

[Heartbreaker714]

I like it

I actually like the Apistogramma Steel blue hybrid. Would you like to sell to me? haha. I can't find it in California anywhere

 

[breadbox]

yeah...

well as an employee of the LFS mentioned here I do have a couple things to say.

1) the majority of people are misinformed as to the nature of the steel blue. for many years they were told they were hybrids and sterile.. and only males exist and the evil asian producers don't ship females as an elaborate plot to stop people from breeding...

yeah not really.

here's the thing, the fish may have been hybridised...but they may not.. they are definatly not borelli. females do exist and are shipped. they are however very difficult to sex. the dorsal fin in the male is longer and pointed (usually) the females will have much much less face blue (sometimes none.. sometimes some), and the female's pelvic fins will have the lower parts lined in black.. (some of the males do as well)

they do breed.

they lay fewer than 50 eggs... and their fry are much smaller than the average apisto.. but they can still be fed the usual method.

people are misinformed about this species.. it's nice, it's generally not too agressive.. and they can be bred.

they are not destroying the hobby.

yes they only ship from asia... but who cares. look at orange flash or tripple red varients... people love and breed those...

this is a color varient likely... but it doesn't make it evil.

as for what it is.. well the only thing people know is it is in the regan's group for apistogrammas...

how's that for informative.

 

[Mike Wise]

Your claims are interesting. I've added mine:

yeah...

well as an employee of the LFS mentioned here I do have a couple things to say.

1) the majority of people are misinformed as to the nature of the steel blue. for many years they were told they were hybrids and sterile..

Most experts on apistos - Römer, Staeck, & Matsuzaka, among others - believe that it is a cross between 2 closely related species. If this is true, then the Steel-blue is a hybrid. I don't recall anyone saying it was sterile, only that it's hard to find females for breeding

and only males exist and the evil asian producers don't ship females as an elaborate plot to stop people from breeding...

It has happened before. The different color forms of the Dwarf Gourami were originally shipped in as males only. When females were requested, females of the wild form were provided. They only started shipping the females for the domestic forms when stock was stolen from the original fish farm and distributed worldwide. Steel-blue females are fairly easy to pick out of a school of juveniles before shipment. They do not have the amount of blue on their head. According to Römer, the European strain of the Blue-head was produced by taking Asian Blue-head males and mating them with wild caetei females (which of the 3 genetically isolated species encompassing "A. caetei" as we know it is unknown). Fortunately we are getting more females in now, but still not enough from commercial breeders compared to males. This is frustrating for many hobby breeders who want to buy a pair from their LFS.

yeah not really.

yes, really. I was in the fish wholesale business when the gourami fiasco occurred.

here's the thing, the fish may have been hybridised...but they may not.. they are definatly not borelli. females do exist and are shipped. they are however very difficult to sex. the dorsal fin in the male is longer and pointed (usually) the females will have much much less face blue (sometimes none.. sometimes some), and the female's pelvic fins will have the lower parts lined in black.. (some of the males do as well)

they do breed.

they lay fewer than 50 eggs... and their fry are much smaller than the average apisto.. but they can still be fed the usual method.

yes, I agree, this is true for the most part

people are misinformed about this species..

Very true. Many people have been disappointed in the past because they thought they were getting a new species, and hopefully the hobby breeders will be able to supply more females from now on.

it's nice, it's generally not too agressive.. and they can be bred.

they are not destroying the hobby.

I, too, think that "destroying the hobby" is a bit of an exageration. They should, however, be offered honestly as what they are & what to expect to unsuspecting aquarium hobbyists. Too often they are not.

yes they only ship from asia... but who cares. look at orange flash or tripple red varients... people love and breed those...

this is a color varient likely... but it doesn't make it evil.

The domestic color morphs of A. cacatuoides are quite different from the Steel-blue. All of the Cockatoo morphs are developed from a single species; the Steel-blue seems to be a cross of 2 species. Still it doesn't make the Steel-blue evil, but the people selling it as a species as a distinct species, well...

as for what it is.. well the only thing people know is it is in the regan's group for apistogrammas...

how's that for informative.

I personally don't care much for any of the domestic color morphs or hybrids (e.g. "A. viejta" CF II), but I am the last person who would deny those who like them to be ostracized by those crazy enough to think like me. It is my choice whether to keep these forms or not, just like it is other people's choice to keep domestic color strains & hybrids. I just want people to be told what they are getting before they buy. how's that for informative?

 

[breadbox]

i agree entirely, people should be getting something from a LFS and be well informed.

the only thing i wanted to stress, specifically, was that this fish, /may/ be a hybrid...(and most experts seem to think it's probable, as you pointed out) but it's certainly not as bad for the hobby as painted fish, aquababies, etc...

the thing is, as someone who works in the environment, we have to know enough about everything to sell most about anything... as where with clients, oftentimes, they'll go out and no everything about one thing: like catfish, kilifish, dwarf cichlids...

so the best bet is to not get upset if a LFS doesn't essentially know all there is to know about one aspect of the hobby.....after all.. they're only human and they're going to have to be experts at so much that every once in a while, something so badly understood as the steel blue will show up and it's the rare store that will be able to give customers proper information...

makes sense?

 

[Mike Wise]

It makes sense to me. I think the thing that bothered me most when working/owning a LFS was the number of people who would not listen to you - and then blame you when something went wrong in their tank. The second most bothersome - people were not willing to read or learn about the fish they buy. They would spend hundreds of $$ on equipment & fish, but 'couldn't afford' a basic book.

 

[Lisachromis]

They would spend hundreds of $$ on equipment & fish, but 'couldn't afford' a basic book.

HERE HERE!!

 

[STOKER]

They would spend hundreds of $$ on equipment & fish, but 'couldn't afford' a basic book.

I agree with you there Mike , Just spent $300 on a out of print book on killifish ,it`s one of the best books about killies even though the info in it is dated.

Mike

 

[Zapisto]

It makes sense to me. I think the thing that bothered me most when working/owning a LFS was the number of people who would not listen to you - and then blame you when something went wrong in their tank. The second most bothersome - people were not willing to read or learn about the fish they buy. They would spend hundreds of $$ on equipment & fish, but 'couldn't afford' a basic book.

i cannot be more than agree with you Mike

 

[Mike Wise]

I agree with you there Mike , Just spent $300 on a out of print book on killifish ,it`s one of the best books about killies even though the info in it is dated.

Mike

Which killi book is now this valuable?

 

[Apistogramm-Sam]

Here's another person who agrees with you whole heartedly Mike! It's much easier to get people to drop 2 G's on a set up, but when it comes to a 40$ book, they mysteriously don't have funds for that. Hmmm. . .

 

[Richard Brice]

I also thought that the steel blue apisto is a hybred ... however after breeding them several times all (100%) of the young looked like the parents. Also I recieved an email on Jan 4th this year giving a collection location for these fish:

Richard -

Received an update from my supplier in Peru:

"Tell the customer that they were catched in Iquitos - Nauta Road around Km 35 black water small rivers all these rivers ending in ITAYA river"

Hope this helps.

 

[Mike Wise]

Richard,

Either your fish are not Steel-blues, the supplier got erroneous information or confused it with another species, or he is "blowing you off" for some reason.

The only regani-group species from the area described (heavily collected by commercial & hobbyist collectors) are A. cf. eunotus (a couple of types), A. sp. Schwarzbrust/Black-breast (Rotterpunkt), and possibly A. sp. Nanay/Melgar. All of these species belong to the eunotus-complex of the regani-group. The eunotus-complex is found in the far western Amazon Basin, mostly in Peru. The Steel-blue exhibits mixed features of the caetei- & resticulosa-complexes of the regani-group. These two complexes are eastern Amazon Basin complexes. Whether it is a hybrid or not, it didn't come from the area listed - unless someone has a breeding operation there.

 

[Richard Brice]

Thanks Mike for the information about the collection points ....

I don't breed hybreds on purpose .... I would think that hybreds would thow a certen percentage of each original parent as well as the same as the fry. Does anyone have any genetic input on this?

Richard

 

[STOKER]

Which killi book is now this valuable?

Sorry Mike not to reply before now the book is

ATLAS OF KILLIFISHES OF THE OLD WORLD
by Jorgen J Scheel
published 1990

Mike but broke

 

[STOKER]

Thanks Mike for the information about the collection points ....

I don't breed hybreds on purpose .... I would think that hybreds would thow a certen percentage of each original parent as well as the same as the fry. Does anyone have any genetic input on this?

Richard

If you can find info about the way colour traits are thrown in budgies this may help in how genetics function.Keep and breed them , and am classed as a champion.Won`t go into how the traits work as this forum is not big enough and it`s not easy to explain unless you have the basic info to hand. Know it`s not about apisto`s but genetics function the same for all species.

Mike :tongue:

 

[Lisachromis]

If you can find info about the way colour traits are thrown in budgies this may help in how genetics function.Keep and breed them , and am classed as a champion.Won`t go into how the traits work as this forum is not big enough and it`s not easy to explain unless you have the basic info to hand. Know it`s not about apisto`s but genetics function the same for all species.

Mike :tongue:

Umm... I'm not sure that bird genetics and fish genetics are as close as you think. Does anyone know if fish have "splits" for type or colour? Other than a couple of species of Apistos, most are bred to look exactly like their parents. We tend to get rid of anything that doesn't look right.

And for those who want a quick and interesting but VERY basic read of budgie genetics - http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/genetics/genetics.html
Budgies have quite complicated genetics, as I'm sure everything else does.

 

[STOKER]

Does anyone know if fish have "splits" for type or colour?

If you consider the Guppy how many types and colours are there?? , as you say the unwanted trait is discarded , and only the wanted trait is kept. this involves line breeding to FIX the trait that is wanted . Line breeding is a matter of breeding parents to next generation to fix the wanted trait.

Mike

 

[ed seeley]

If I understand correctly, Richard was merely asking if the offspring of a hybrid would show much variability.
Depending on how the Steel Blue was created would effect what you saw in the offspring. Just like any animal, a hybrid cross would, in essence, function like any outcross between two 'strains', be they species or simply colour forms of the same species. The F1 (in the correct term) should be uniform for most characteristics as it has been taken from two relatively pure breeding populations and the F1 would be heterozygous for most genetic traits. (This is the way that the F1 vegetables and flowers are produced to give vigorous, uniform plants when you grow them, but these must be produced from the parental cross each time and are generally expensive seeds.)
The F2 would then have variation, with the offspring being both homozygous and heterozygous for various traits. If these fish are then selected and line bred they could produce a population that breeds true and produces offspring with the same traits as their parents.
The fact that Richard's Steel Blue's bred true does not mean they aren't hybrids, just that sfter the initial cross the F2 and subsequent generations were selected carefully for the nice blue colouration.

Though there are major differences in aspects of bird, fish and even plant genetics, the genetics of line breeding strains is fundamentally the same process. Just bear in mind that there are always exceptions to the standard rules of dominance and recessiveness.

With most Apistos it's not really that they are bred 'to look exactly like their parents' (implying intent on the part of the breeder), but that we are usually breeding two individuals from the same population together. In this case there shouldn't be too much variation between the parents and therefore the offspring should resemble the parents. Where two different strains are crossed, e.g. as in some tank strains of A.cactuoides, then these line breeding fundamentals will be important to get a true breeding line again.

 

[P.W.]

Thanks for your explanation Ed. You are mentioning a very interesting point there. And I have the same thoughts as you Richard. Lets say that the Steel blue is a line breed hybrid between two or more species. Then I would definately say that the F2 generation would regenerate and show traits from its ancestors. This is exactly what happens if you breed Ap. Cacatuodes (double red, red stroke or whatever they are called) Platy, guppy etc etc.
The following generations are really "returning" to something that looks like the wild form.

This is the major point about the Steel Blue that puzzles me. Why do all the frys look like their parents. And Beside that, why do all Steel blue on the market look the same. There´s no big variation in colour and form.

Look whats happend with the Cacatuoides, Blue Rams, Guppy, Scalare etc etc. These are species that are subjected to very hard line breeding. And what is the result from that? Well, a lot of of colour strains, long fins and different body forms are showing up on the market.
We havent seen anything of this yet regarding the Steel blue. Why? If the breeders in asia are putting so much work into the Steel blue breeding, why haven´t we seen any albino forms and colored long fins for example? (at least I havent seen any, correct me if I´m wrong)

There´s so many strange things about this fish! Is it possible that there´s only one breeder in Asia that breed this fish, and are supplying the whole world? If there would be several breeders working with the steel blue, I would be surprised if they could stick to the same "recipe"all of them. We would then see a number of different forms of Steel blue if this was the case.

Mike, I know that you have a clear opinion about this subject, and it is very possible that you are completely right about the hybrid theory.
But I´m still getting a lot of headache from this mystery fish

Best regards/ Per