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Apisto SP. steel blue

Discussion in 'Apistogramma' started by Xanathos, Feb 15, 2003.

  1. Xanathos

    Xanathos New Member 5 Year Member

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    I,ve just acquired a trio of those fishes from a LFS in montreal. They asked a very cheap price for it, so I bought them.. But now, after reading about them ( you know what it is when you see a nice fish, you MUST have it.. :lol: ), I'm not so sure it was a good idea.

    Is it true that it is a man-made apisto? Kinda hybrid I guess ?? Any information about this fish ?

    Thanks a lot..
    Philippe
  2. Aquatico

    Aquatico Member 5 Year Member

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    Philippe, do you have females? Usualy they dont export their females.

    Don
  3. Neil

    Neil New Member

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    Xanathos,
    I have yet to see a female of one of these fish. You may try and breed a male to a female borellii, just for yucks. Here is another thread on them. But they are a hybrid and I don't particularly like the idea of these kinds of fish floating around the hobby with all the nice "true" apistos out there. Anyone for a flowerhorn apisto! :?

    http://www.apistogramma.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679&highlight=steel+blue

    Neil
  4. Xanathos

    Xanathos New Member 5 Year Member

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    ****.. I can tell you those guys are going straight back to the LFS if they are truly steel blue !

    15$ wasted :( I have some females with them, but I'm not sure they are of the same family. But since that LFS once sold apisto papagey as apisto agassizi , for 15$ a pair, I'M going to wait a bit before I return them back, just in case :)

    But if it's hybrid, i'm not keeping this any longer..

    Phil
  5. Neil

    Neil New Member

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    Phil,
    If you got females, you may have something interesting. Anyway to take a pic of the male and female?
    Romer does have a listing of the sp."Steel blue" in his atlas and attributes it as a member of the regani group. I am not quite sure what the deal is with that fish. i have just heard many roomers aout it being a hybrid and coming from asia as only males to keep people from breeding them.
    Neil
    Neil
  6. Xanathos

    Xanathos New Member 5 Year Member

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    It seems I have some females with them, but how to be sure it is really a female from this particular species, since I nvr saw any pics of it anywhere... Anyway, looking at the dorsal shape and body coloration, it looks like a female.

    Working on that... Will give you further information on it... I'll try to acclimate them in a small tnak so they can show their full colors, making it easier to clearly identify. But rigth now, if I compare them with the pics you send me in your reply, i'm not so sure it's really steel blue..

    Anyway, I should be able to take some pics very soon...

    Thanks for the help, it's appreciated..

    Philippe
  7. Bissot_J

    Bissot_J New Member 5 Year Member

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    hey phil ,

    wich LFS ?
    i hate hybrid and if it is really hybrid you got i think it will be very good to
    tell the most aquaris possible the tru in montreal
  8. Xanathos

    Xanathos New Member 5 Year Member

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    Unfortunatly, it seems it is hybrid... What I thought were females are finally males :( I should have checked what kind of fish it was before buying it, but given the cheap price and the " I nvr saw this one" before feeling, I picked them up :(

    The LFS is Aquarius, I guess the moderators will censor it if they dont want me to name the store...

    Philippe :(
  9. Bissot_J

    Bissot_J New Member 5 Year Member

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    Hi phil,

    I know this shop, strange, this shop was before one of the best of montreal.
    i see them day after day being bad and worst.

    sorry for that.
  10. tjudy

    tjudy Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    :)
    I personally do not think that a store that sells the fish you are discussing becomes a 'bad' store simply for carrying a hybrid fish. There are a LOT of hybrid fish in the hobby. Like almost all of the swordtails, platies and discus.

    When I ran shops I drew the line short of selling painted glass and other dyed or hormoned fish. I had no problems providing customers with the hybrid ornamentals that they wanted. I certainly did not advertise them as something that they are not.

    Just because 'steel blue' is a hybrid, does not mean that it does not have value as an ornamental fish. If you were led to believe by the store that this is a pure species, or that you were buying pairs, then return them. Educate them... but remember that they are in the business of selling ornamental fish, and 'steel blue' is exactly that....
  11. Xanathos

    Xanathos New Member 5 Year Member

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    Yes, it's ornemental, but do we really need another kind of hybrid in the hobby, with all the "assorted" african ciclids ? IMO, hybrid like that should not be tolerated. There is a difference in selecting physical traits from a fish to enhance it over generations like with discus , guppies or any triple orange or double red apistogramma and to willingly breed two very different but close species to produce another one.

    The line is thin, but there is still one. It's ethic vs business, and I choose ethic.

    That's only my opinion...

    Philippe
  12. tjudy

    tjudy Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    :)
    It is amazing to me the differences in opinion between different types of hobbyists. If I bring up the current rage in hybrid cichlids, FLOWERHORNS, this forum will be very negative towards them. Over on the discus boards (DAAH) a thread on flowerhorns received a lot of positive response.

    Unethical to hybridize two species? Is a mule unethical? Is a wolf hybrid unethical? Are discus (which most definitely ARE hybrids) unethical? Guppies? Swords? Platies?

    Is it unethical to breed two fish that are the same species but from different geographic regions? Is the ENTIRE Florida and Southeast Asian fish farm industry unethical?

    The only unethical thing is to do it and then lie about it. If you do not like the hybrids, you do not have to buy them. A person may have a hobby that specifically keeps pure strains of fish.... great. Another person may simply want a pretty fish in their tank with absolutely no desire to breed them whatsoever... I certainly would not call such a person unethical.
  13. Aquatico

    Aquatico Member 5 Year Member

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    I agree with Ted! I like the fish.

    Don
  14. apistodave

    apistodave Member Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    You know what I wouldnt do it but if you hybridize something and it survives, well it's cool then, this happens in nature . If it doesnt survive then it's no good, this is called natural selection. The problem is in doing this kind of stuff with bacteria and viruses you could get something that would eat up the human race. In general though you take a fish like that and release it into the wild and it wouldnt last two seconds, so where's the harm. The intermixing of species happens all the time in the wild, the thing is we only see the survivors.
  15. 2la

    2la New Member 5 Year Member

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    There is indeed harm in releasing fish hybridized by the efforts of man. You certainly risk developing a superspecies that outcompetes the native species, and you may introduce an aquarium superstrain of disease organism into the wild that can decimate the native fauna (especially more likely given the potential for aquarium bugs to develop resistance because of frequent treatment with various pharmaceuticals). I don't think hybridization for ornamental purposes is particularly wrong (though I'll go with the wild-types any ol' day), but there should be an up-front honesty about it to avoid dilution of the captive gene pool, with a VERY strict understanding that these fish should NEVER be released into the wild. Leave natural processes to Nature as much as possible--we've meddled quite enough as it is.
  16. tjudy

    tjudy Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    :)
    Wildlife biologists would tell you that no organism that is bred or maintained in captivity, possible other than for a short rehabilitative period of time, should EVER be released into the wild. Regardless of whether they are pur strains or not. Release of endangered species only occurs in extreme cases where the release is parapmount to the survival of the species, and usually only in areas where ther in NO natural population at all (examples - black footed ferrets and California condors here is AZ).

    If there is somebody hybridizing Apistos and sending them back to the Amazon, then they have an awfully weird agenda.

    The truth is that many hobbyists, with nothing but the best intentions, believe that by keeping pure strains of fish in their collections that they are preserving the genetic integrity of a type, and that preservation may one day be useful should the species be needed for some conservation program.

    I am sure, and encourage, Nermal to jump in here any time now....

    In fact, the environements that these fish are living in are what is in danger. Conservation efforts to 'Save the Rainforest' might be a better expenditure of your aquarium budget if you are motivated in your hobby by preservation of species. The fish are not endangered (or we could not get them legally), and we might want to consider the idea that importing them AT ALL is reducing the genetic variability of the wild populations. I woudl say that the absolute best coarse of action for the preservation of a species would be to leave them alone... meaning all aspects of their existance remaining unaffected by man... which we know is impossible in this modern world.

    Everyone has their reasons for being in this hobby. I do not think that anyone can deny that the base reason for keeping fish is the sheer joy of doing it. Please keep that in mind when we discuss whether or not a person's actions in the hobby are ethical.
  17. tjudy

    tjudy Moderator Staff Member 5 Year Member

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    :)
    I can think of a few reasons why teh producers of Apisto. 'steel blue' do not sell females. One, obviously, is to keep other people from breeding them. That reason, however does not follow the pattern that Southeast Asia usually follows. The fish is just not expensive enough for that to be a factor. If they sell females they can double their output, and income. These people are selling to stores that sell to hobbyists. Compared to the numbers of people who want nothing more than a pretty fish in their tanks, we breeder-hobbyists are an extreme minority. Southeast Asia is not worried about us.

    Another reason might be the the hybridizations produces only males.... or such a large ratio of males to females that it is in the interest of the producers to ship only males, so that their quaility will be consistant.

    A third reason, though it does not fit the pattern... but I'm just trying to stir the pot a bit... is that MAYBE the producers are not releasing females because they AGREE with the 'ethical' issue of not proliferating hybrid fish, and are making sure that Apisto. 'steel blue' stays just a pretty fish to keep in a tank.
  18. aspen

    aspen Active Member 5 Year Member

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    i don't think anyone should be criticised for keeping hybrids. if you do, start with dog and cat owners. then move to horses, sheep, pigs... then there are humans, with inter-racial marriages. well you see my point. man made hrbrids are all around us.

    if you want to stay away from hybrids, it would be a lot more humane, to just do a little research BEFORE you make that purchase. moving the fish from their tank, to yours and back again, only causes stress and the fish is more likely to die more quickly. but, 1 thing is for sure, one way or another, every fish purchased at a lfs is going to die sooner or later. most, much sooner than later. the percentage of fish that live a year is likely about 1% or so, judging on how the average fish buyer keeps fish.

    as for why there are no females, well, i would think it much more likely that females are less likely to ocurr or are non-existant. these asian fish farms DO export femeles of every other kind of fish, why not these? i doubt that it is some kind of a conspiracy. it is more likely that the females are not ocurring due to hybridisation, or incorrect water parms.

    we keep these fish because they are ornamental, they look nice swimming around in our homes. period. there's no conservation efforts going on in my home. i just enjoy them, so i buy them. i would NEVER consider releasing them back into their wild homes. that would be cruel, better to just kill them, than to just feed them to the more agressive wild fish.

    just my .02, rick
  19. aspen

    aspen Active Member 5 Year Member

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    one other thought: if there is one good thing that our hobby does, is it shows others what the term genetic diversity means graphically. i have never had anyone in my home, whose eyes were not drawn to my planted tank. most will sit up close, and i will describe to them fish they have probably never seen before, and their interesting characteristics. this draws people more into the idea that their native habitats need to be preserved. so, while i may not be able to 'save the world' a little education of others doesn't hurt.

    it also might stop them from purchasing a gold fish bowl (torture bowl), or 'aqua babies', and encourage them to be more interested in keeping these types of animals properly. i like to compare keeping fish properly to keeping a dog properly. it is imo, a lot more beneficial to keep a proper fish tank to a torture bowl and people DO get the point. if you can stop one person from buying an aqua baby set-up or goldfish bowl, then you have done something useful, imo.

    rick
  20. Daniel L

    Daniel L New Member 5 Year Member

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    I think you guys are far from the true topic. Soon or later, hybrids are gonna kill the hobby. First of all, it's very pleasant to get a very colourful (and cool looking) fish. This is partially due to good breeders like we all are, who spend time on SELECTIVE BREEDING. Still the same genus like A.cacatuides "triple red" (or whatever). Hybridation relates to TWO different genus that are crossed together to create a new (disgusting) fish.
    If you can't trace from where the hybrid comes from, they should be banned. We all have the capability to act as gods and create new genus. You all know what it's like when we play gods. Sterile fishes, misaligned mouth, weakened generations, sensitivity to diseases, etc.
    The LFS staff don't care about ethics. They will tell you everything you want to hear just to sell you the fish. They will tell you it's a pure species, a new genus, if that's what you need.
    Let's say you get a spawn from them. Are you gonna sell or feed them to other fishes? Ask you the question because, you're creating the demand for these. I'm definitely with the "purists" for which the words "Pure" and "Quality" sounds good to their ears.
    Daniel L