Apisto choices

[Brendon]

Hi guys,

We recently got back into fishkeeping, and have a pair of Double Red Cacatuoides happily growing up and like a moth to a flame, we're now working on a second tank with a different Apisto variety.

Now available types have definitely changed here in Australia so I surprisingly have a choice to make. However I'm struggling to find in-depth info on the 4 I've narrowed it down to. (All from F1's, so I'm assuming they will be a bit more finicky than line bred).

Apisto Atahualpa (sunset)
Apisto Allpahuayo
Apisto Schwarzkehl
Apisto Piaroa

It's for a 60x30x45 aquarium and I would normally only have 1 m and 1 fm. I'm erring towards the bottom 3, as I've heard the Atahualpa may be to aggressive for this size tank.

I have a few questions

1. How well would they go in a biotype tank of this size.
2. Do any of them have any special needs, ie: extremely low ph, or any others considerations I should be aware of? We have a ph of 7.8, so was planning to use botanicals to lower it. I don't see hard water as an issue, however ideally want to avoid RO if I can avoid it. My Cacatuoides are happy swimming around at a slightly adjusted 7.3.
3. Is the Schwarzkehl a clear water fish, with the others being Blackwater?
4. Pictures vs reality. I can find some pictures on websites, but how realistic would pictures of wild versions be to how they'll turn out. (Especially from Toms stunning website pictures).

Many thanks.

Brendon

 

[MacZ]

Just in advance: I haven't kept the species you list, partially because I never liked the "big mouth and raggy mohawk" look of the first two, while the other two haven't been available to me.

Now firstly, make sure the "Schwarzkehl" are actual Apistogramma viejita, almost all sold in the trade under that name are a domestic strain of Apistogramma macmasteri.

Secondly:

We have a ph of 7.8, so was planning to use botanicals to lower it.

That points to a quite high KH, which ist the value that determines the pH. And with a (sitting?) pH of 7.8 I know from experience that leaf litter and botanicals will not have any significant impact, maybe for a week or two, but as soon as you do further waterchanges with harder tap water that will dissipate. I estimate longterm you will see the pH stabilize at about 0.5 below the tap.

A. allpahuayo is for sure a low conductivity species, as are A. atahualpa and A. piaroa. Just look at the numbers on Tom's homepage, stating low 5 to high 4 pH readings and TDS as low as possible. If they are indeed F1 tankbred I would definitely consider using RO. And if not 100% RO, at least enough to get pH stabilized with humic substances safely between 6.5 and 6.0.
My experience with blackwater fish is the lower conductivity/TDS the better, pH is secondary. Besides, as soon as KH hits below 2° and conductivity below 100µSI/cm neither drip tests nor pH-meters will work reliably. Though to get conductivity high enough you can mix in salts into the testing sample that don't affect pH to get a pH-meter working.

 

[Mike Wise]

With your pH - if not artificially raised by your water service to protect pipes - I would go with A. sp. Schwarzkehl, formerly A. viejita - which it is not - color form III in the Linke & Staeck books.

 

[Ben Rhau]

I recommend measuring your TDS/conductivity and KH. It’s useful for knowing your options now, and eventually later if you want to breed the F1s.

If, as Mike mentions as a possibility, you happen to have soft water with an added strong base, it’s possible you could lower the pH with botanicals. However, I advise doing this outside the aquarium, and at that point you might be better off using RO.

If, as MacZ suggests (and is more likely the case) you do have hard water and want to keep soft water species, you don’t have much choice than to use RO or rainwater.

 

[Brendon]

Thanks @Ben Rhau @Mike Wise and @MacZ . Appreciate the assistance. My local water contrary to my original thoughts deems themselves to have hard water for Australia.

Conductivity of 450 uS/cm
Total dissolved hardness of 290 mg/l
Hardness of 90 mg/l

All of the above is from across the city an average for 2020-2021 but gives me a place to start. I'll grab a gh test kit today and start searching for a tds tester.

I have tested my Cacatuoides tank and constantly get a 4 drop carbonate reading on the api tests.

I can also confirm the Schwarzkehl would actually be F1 as they are from wild caught. Nb: they were actually sold as a completely different wild caught variety but because they didn't match what they were sold as were independently verified and corrected (inc' by Frank Hattich) so I feel it's accurate. The Piaroa was the same as well, being labelled as Megaptera by the original importer.

Nb: I could also get the Apisto Piauiensis which the other half loves.

Many thanks

 

[Mike Wise]

A. piauiensis would also be a good choice for moderately hard water.

 

[Bowluvr]

Just in advance: I haven't kept the species you list, partially because I never liked the "big mouth and raggy mohawk" look of the first two, while the other two haven't been available to me.

Now firstly, make sure the "Schwarzkehl" are actual Apistogramma viejita, almost all sold in the trade under that name are a domestic strain of Apistogramma macmasteri.

Secondly:

That points to a quite high KH, which ist the value that determines the pH. And with a (sitting?) pH of 7.8 I know from experience that leaf litter and botanicals will not have any significant impact, maybe for a week or two, but as soon as you do further waterchanges with harder tap water that will dissipate. I estimate longterm you will see the pH stabilize at about 0.5 below the tap.

A. allpahuayo is for sure a low conductivity species, as are A. atahualpa and A. piaroa. Just look at the numbers on Tom's homepage, stating low 5 to high 4 pH readings and TDS as low as possible. If they are indeed F1 tankbred I would definitely consider using RO. And if not 100% RO, at least enough to get pH stabilized with humic substances safely between 6.5 and 6.0.
My experience with blackwater fish is the lower conductivity/TDS the better, pH is secondary. Besides, as soon as KH hits below 2° and conductivity below 100µSI/cm neither drip tests nor pH-meters will work reliably. Though to get conductivity high enough you can mix in salts into the testing sample that don't affect pH to get a pH-meter working.

I agree that the likelihood of those being actual viejita is almost zero. They are likely macmasteri, and probably a domestic color strain at that. The good news is that macmasteri are gorgeous and hardy. They will probably do fine in the conditions your cacatuoides are currently in (especially if they are a domestic color strain), though eggs may or may not hatch when they breed depending on how a kH test goes.

With your water parameters, you may want to consider trifasciata and/or borellii as options. Both will do better in slightly harder water than that which the majority of Apistos prefer.

 

[Ben Rhau]

He did say the Schwarzkehl were ID’d by Frank…

 

[Bowluvr]

He did say the Schwarzkehl were ID’d by Frank…

Missed that, as, when I typed the reply, the other replies weren't showing. Oops. I'm not sure that viejita would breed well in harder water. I've only kept them in soft water.