Can I use Lava Rock as a breeding cave?

[domkibby]

Hello everyone,
I’ve been using this site a lot recently for research on apisto care, tank setup, etc. However, I have a pretty unique question that I can’t seem to find the exact answer to. Has anyone ever used a lava rock cave to breed apisto cacatuoides? Or if not, do you think I could? I have this really cool little piece of lava rock that I’ve had in my tanks for years and I introduced it to my new 10gal apisto setup to cycle and because I’m going for an archy kinda look with the piece of driftwood I have. I’m just wondering if the lava rock is too porous or has too many tony holes for the female to lay her eggs on. I haven’t bought the fish yet, I just set up the tank and I have a few feeder guppies in there and I’m gonna wait a couple weeks before introducing the fish. I’ll attach a few pics as well. Thank you!

 

[MacZ]

Frankly, the material is irrelevant. The cave entrance is likely just going to be too big. I can imagine the fish will prefer another spot in the tank.

And otherwise... If you have a second tank to separate the fish and a third for growout, the tank will suffice as a breeding tank. If you do not have other tanks for these purposes, you can at most keep a single male in that tank and for a relatively big species like A. cacatuoides this is more or less the smallest you can go.

 

[domkibby]

Thank you for your response, I do have a second tank i was planning on moving the fry to in order to grow them out. I know a 10gal is on the smaller side but I am prepared to have to move if needed. I have kept cichlids for years and the only reason I have small tanks now is because I am a college student that lives on campus and I don’t want to transport big tanks back and forth. Taking your reply into consideration, I think I will try to use the lava rock and if I notice that the female claims a different territory or if they aren’t breeding after a few weeks, I will take it out and introduce a more cave like piece, like a coconut shell.
Also, I have watched many videos on breeding apistos and raising fry, but I am still a little nervous. My plan is to separate the fry from the parents immediately to reduce aggression, lower fry mortality, and hopefully reduce the time for another spawn. I plan on feeding the fry mashed hard boiled egg yolk mixed with tank water 3-5 times a day for the first couple days. Then hatch baby brine shrimp and switch them to that until they are big enough to eat hikari first bites then crushed pellots. Is this a good method? Or is there anything you would suggest. Thank you!

 

[MacZ]

My plan is to separate the fry from the parents immediately to reduce aggression, lower fry mortality, and hopefully reduce the time for another spawn.

That will actually increase the likelihood of losses.
Do you have somebody to take them all off your hands? You know standard sale size is at about 4cm and that means about 3 months of growout.

 

[MacZ]

As for food: they are big enough for artemia nauplii once they are free swimming, besides that I would put my money on infusoria on leaf litter as first food followed by live foods of different kinds like artemia and micro worms.
Dry foods I would only add to the mix towards the end of growout to make sure buyers will not have to feed live foods.

 

[domkibby]

Thank you for your response, I do have a second tank i was planning on moving the fry to in order to grow them out. I know a 10gal is on the smaller side but I am prepared to have to move if needed. I have kept cichlids for years and the only reason I have small tanks now is because I am a college student that lives on campus and I don’t want to transport big tanks back and forth. Taking your reply into consideration, I think I will try to use the lava rock and if I notice that the female claims a different territory or if they aren’t breeding after a few weeks, I will take it out and introduce a more cave like piece, like a coconut shell.
Also, I have watched many videos on breeding apistos and raising fry, but I am still a little nervous. My plan is to separate the fry from the parents immediately to reduce aggression, lower fry mortality, and hopefully reduce the time for another spawn. I plan on feeding the fry mashed hard boiled egg yolk mixed with tank water 3-5 times a day for the first couple days. Then hatch baby brine shrimp and switch them to that until they are big enough to eat hikari first bites then crushed pellots. Is this a good method? Or is there anything you would suggest. Thank you!

I piled up some river stones around the entrance to make it smaller.

That will actually increase the likelihood of losses.
Do you have somebody to take them all off your hands? You know standard sale size is at about 4cm and that means about 3 months of growout.

I will be keeping a couple ottos and pencil fish in there with them and people online said it was best to move the fry and raise them yourself. Ive also read that the parents will sometimes eat them as well, I just wanted to make sure they were getting food predator free. I am going to talk to my LFS when I pick up the fish, they were willing to buy plants off of me so I’m sure if I bred apistos they would take them. If not, I’ll just stick to one male until I have someone who will take them.

 

[domkibby]

As for food: they are big enough for artemia nauplii once they are free swimming, besides that I would put my money on infusoria on leaf litter as first food followed by live foods of different kinds like artemia and micro worms.
Dry foods I would only add to the mix towards the end of growout to make sure buyers will not have to feed live foods.

Okay, I will write these down in my notes page. I was planning on already putting moss and almond leaves in the growout tank. And thank you for the advice about waiting to mix in hard foods until the end.

That will actually increase the likelihood of losses.
Do you have somebody to take them all off your hands? You know standard sale size is at about 4cm and that means about 3 months of growout.

So what do you recommend instead of moving the fry once they become free swimming? How long should I leave them in for and should I separate the male and pencilfish?

 

[MacZ]

Pencilfish are usually fry safe. Otocinclus are more at risk to be beaten up and killed by the apistos than doing harm themselves, usually both sides ignore each other. Otos barely use caves.

I'd move the fry to a sufficiently big growout once the mother doesn't care anymore which is after 2-3 weeks on average. The growout should have at least 100 Liters in volume (yes, for once I'm not talking dimensions), as higher volume means less waterchanges. Smaller tanks for growout can mean waterchanges every other day. Bigger tanks give you more room to breath and for mistakes. Do not mix batches in growout. The younger, smaller ones are likely to become runts. To reach sale size it will take at least 3 months under optimal conditions. Until then separate the parents as to prevent more spawns you can't fit in there.

Seperation of the male is usually for its own safety. The females of many species tend to chase off the male and keep them at distance. That can cause enormous pressure and stress if the tank is too small.

Vice versa if the tanknis decorated too open (and sorry yours is) with to few or even no sight blocks at all a male will easily harrass a female not ready to breed to death. That's why especially in breeding setups with smaller tanks a second tank for on-demand separation is kind of a necessity.

 

[domkibby]

Tha

Pencilfish are usually fry safe. Otocinclus are more at risk to be beaten up and killed by the apistos than doing harm themselves, usually both sides ignore each other. Otos barely use caves.

I'd move the fry to a sufficiently big growout once the mother doesn't care anymore which is after 2-3 weeks on average. The growout should have at least 100 Liters in volume (yes, for once I'm not talking dimensions), as higher volume means less waterchanges. Smaller tanks for growout can mean waterchanges every other day. Bigger tanks give you more room to breath and for mistakes. Do not mix batches in growout. The younger, smaller ones are likely to become runts. To reach sale size it will take at least 3 months under optimal conditions. Until then separate the parents as to prevent more spawns you can't fit in there.

Seperation of the male is usually for its own safety. The females of many species tend to chase off the male and keep them at distance. That can cause enormous pressure and stress if the tank is too small.

Vice versa if the tanknis decorated too open (and sorry yours is) with to few or even no sight blocks at all a male will easily harrass a female not ready to breed to death. That's why especially in breeding setups with smaller tanks a second tank for on-demand separation is kind of a necessity.

Pencilfish are usually fry safe. Otocinclus are more at risk to be beaten up and killed by the apistos than doing harm themselves, usually both sides ignore each other. Otos barely use caves.

I'd move the fry to a sufficiently big growout once the mother doesn't care anymore which is after 2-3 weeks on average. The growout should have at least 100 Liters in volume (yes, for once I'm not talking dimensions), as higher volume means less waterchanges. Smaller tanks for growout can mean waterchanges every other day. Bigger tanks give you more room to breath and for mistakes. Do not mix batches in growout. The younger, smaller ones are likely to become runts. To reach sale size it will take at least 3 months under optimal conditions. Until then separate the parents as to prevent more spawns you can't fit in there.

Seperation of the male is usually for its own safety. The females of many species tend to chase off the male and keep them at distance. That can cause enormous pressure and stress if the tank is too small.

Vice versa if the tanknis decorated too open (and sorry yours is) with to few or even no sight blocks at all a male will easily harrass a female not ready to breed to death. That's why especially in breeding setups with smaller tanks a second tank for on-demand separation is kind of a necessity.

Thank you for the input, apparently I haven’t done enough research. With me only having the two 10 gallons, maybe I’ll hold off on breeding and only buy one male apisto for now. However I would like to breed them in the future when I have better resources available. And I know my tank is kind of open, I am looking to buy more plants such as java fern and amazon swords to fill in gaps. I will definitely keep this info on standby! Thank you again