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What happens to ph when you mix ro water with tap water ?

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,479
RO units are not permanently installed. I store mine in a plastic bag in a box and only connect it to my shower tap when I need it. Or are you looking to get a big one?
There are two issues with current residence; can't modify sink to support one and yes i will need a big one after i move.
 

anewbie

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,479
You can't screw off the aerator from the faucet?
@MacZ you are knowledgeable and helpful at times but sometime I think you just like to argue:
f.jpg

Does the aerator unscrew - with a bit of effort sure. Is it a standard size; of course not these days companies don't like standard size stuff. Why did I buy this faucet; I didn't it came with the place. In addition there are other headaches. I would need about 15 gallon per change for this tank. However I would have to then pump it from the bathroom to the area with the tank which means I'll need another large bucket to hold the water and another pump dedicated to ro water (to keep the water pure). What I currently do is run a hose from the bathroom to the fish room the night before and fill a 30 gallon pail. I mean I have to change 100 gallon of water during water change day so the last thing I want to do is try to get an ro unit to fit non-standard faucet then pump it to a dedicated ro water pail (where I would put it i have no clue) and make sure i keep the ro water sep from the tap water i'm using for the other tanks. When i move there will be pvc piping from the ro unit to the fish room so i'll just have to flip a faucet in the fish room to fill the tank.
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Is it possible to make ro work where i currently live - of course anything is possible with enough effort and $$ but is it worth it to get the hongsloi eggs to hatch; not to me. Also they are almost 3 years old already; I'm not sure how much longer they are going to hang around - another year or two i guess.
 

Mike Wise

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Ben Rha, I would hesitate using redwood bark until I tested it on some sacrificial fish. Redwood, being a conifer, contains resins that might not agree with your fish. Redwood is used for fencing and decks primarily becau,,se of it anti-microbial properties that prevent rot.

anewbie, A. hongsloi is not a blackwater species and does not need extremely soft or acidic values to successfully reproduce. Actually, coming from the Llanos which has variable water values depending on the season, they are adaptable and breed in values much like those of A. macmasteri.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
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589
Location
San Francisco
Ben Rha, I would hesitate using redwood bark until I tested it on some sacrificial fish. Redwood, being a conifer, contains resins that might not agree with your fish. Redwood is used for fencing and decks primarily becau,,se of it anti-microbial properties that prevent rot.
Thanks, that’s a good idea. I got <the idea from the killifish people>. But the usage hasn't been well characterized.
 

anewbie

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1,479
Ben Rha, I would hesitate using redwood bark until I tested it on some sacrificial fish. Redwood, being a conifer, contains resins that might not agree with your fish. Redwood is used for fencing and decks primarily becau,,se of it anti-microbial properties that prevent rot.

anewbie, A. hongsloi is not a blackwater species and does not need extremely soft or acidic values to successfully reproduce. Actually, coming from the Llanos which has variable water values depending on the season, they are adaptable and breed in values much like those of A. macmasteri.
Can you be more precise; er what I'm trying to ask is what it takes for their eggs to hatch. My water is gh 7 kh 3 ph 7 tds 120; which I presume is just a bit outside the range they need to hatch. But what would it take for me to make the tap water more acceptable for them. I.e, would adding soemthign like peat or leaves lower the tds enough or is the only solution to dilute tap water with distilled or ro water? I've watch them guard the eggs a full 3+ days multiple times only to have them abandon them when they turn white.
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When i do a bit of seaching it sounds like i need tds 80 and ph 6.8 for reasonable chance of success.
 
Last edited:

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
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589
Location
San Francisco
I can't speak to the water requirements for hatching hongsloi, but I can discuss the peat question.

Peat will definitely lower pH. How much really depends on your situation. IME, it lowers the TDS slightly, maybe 5 - 10%. What I've done in your situation is make a pour-over funnel with peat to treat tap water outside the tank. For a 29g, if you did a 25% water change with 50/50 tap + peat treated tap, you would only need to prepare 3.6 gallons of peat-treated water.

In my case, though, the GH and KH out of the tap are almost zero. I mainly need to burn through the NaOH. So you'd have to measure the effect of the peat on your water to estimate the overall effect on your tank. It's worth noting that it will take time for the chemistry of the entire tank to change much using these amounts, but in my opinion that's good. You don't want rapid changes.

Leaves work, too, but you need to add a lot and it takes time.
 

MacZ

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3,198
Location
Germany
@MacZ you are knowledgeable and helpful at times but sometime I think you just like to argue:
Not at all, I was just not aware that something like this faucet exists. You have crazy stuff there on the other side of the pond.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
589
Location
San Francisco
@anewbie Another thing I've done is reduce the TDS slowly with distilled water (10% water change a day) just to see if TDS is the issue. If that works, then at least you understand the limiting factor that justifies moving to RO.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,479
Not at all, I was just not aware that something like this faucet exists. You have crazy stuff there on the other side of the pond.
Yes we do and it is extremely annoying. The bathtub is worse with regards to standard size. Growing up things were a lot simpler. They do it in the name of style but I think it is to lock you into buying parts from a particular vendor. However a lot of german and swedish vendors are now doing the same thing.
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
589
Location
San Francisco
@Mike Wise I would definitely still test redwood bark, but <this description> from CA State Parks is promising:

"Redwoods are naturally resistant to insects, fungi, and fire because they are high in tannin and do not produce resin or pitch."

I've made a mental note not to try pine bark, which does contain resin.
 

anewbie

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Messages
1,479
@anewbie Another thing I've done is reduce the TDS slowly with distilled water (10% water change a day) just to see if TDS is the issue. If that works, then at least you understand the limiting factor that justifies moving to RO.
Yea I'm tihnking about that my concern is the amount of water i would require. The tank is 29 gallon and i do 50% water change twice a week; so I would need at least 10 gallon per week. I don't strictly have to do two water changes a week but it has become a habit and the fishes are 'used' to it (the tank has been running nearly 3 years). Right now I have a male angel in there for the next 4 weeks to give him a chance to heal up before I return him to the 120 - he has an open sore from the constant bickering with his kids and I want it to have a chance to heal so i might do something after I remove him. Just seems like a lot of water on a regular basis.
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This is the angel and this is the tank (before I added the angel) (cardinal tetra were moved out of the 29 when i put the angel in and they will not be returning - they were in there temp. to grow them out a bit).
ouch.jpgw29_nov_11.jpg
 

Ben Rhau

Apisto Club
Messages
589
Location
San Francisco
@anewbie Re: the angelfish. Poor fella.

Yeah, distilled water definitely isn't sustainable. I'm sure my local grocery and drugstores were confused as to why they suddenly couldn't keep it on the shelf! In my case, the behavior changes were fairly obvious once I got down to a certain TDS. In your case, you could potentially try right after spawning to see if it makes a difference in hatch success. Changing 10% a day, you could go from 120 to 80 TDS in 4 days, so 12 gallons total. And then hold it there for a week and see what happens. It's a thought.

I would, of course, forgo the other 50% water changes while that experiment was going on. You would be changing a little bit of water every day after all, and if you feed light, the tank should be fine.
 

Mike Wise

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Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,305
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
Can you be more precise; er what I'm trying to ask is what it takes for their eggs to hatch. My water is gh 7 kh 3 ph 7 tds 120; which I presume is just a bit outside the range they need to hatch. But what would it take for me to make the tap water more acceptable for them. I.e, would adding soemthign like peat or leaves lower the tds enough or is the only solution to dilute tap water with distilled or ro water? I've watch them guard the eggs a full 3+ days multiple times only to have them abandon them when they turn white.
-
When i do a bit of seaching it sounds like i need tds 80 and ph 6.8 for reasonable chance of success.
In the wild, recorded water values are much lower: ph 4.5 - 5.5 and extremely soft water (< 1° dH). These water values are typical probably only during the dry season when fish were collected. During the wet season, when the fish generally breed, the water is probably more neutral (although I have not looked for values). I am guessing that you have a domestic strain of A. hongsloi. In that case, most commercially bred specimens are produced in moderately hard (similar to yours), slightly acidic (~pH 6.5 - 6.8) water. This is why they are a commercially common apisto and why true blackwater species, like A. elizabethae, are not commercially available as domestic fish - more trouble than it is worth. I cannot say why your pair is having problems. It could be any of many different things, environmental to physiological.
 

Mike Wise

Moderator
Staff member
5 Year Member
Messages
11,305
Location
Denver, Colorado, U.S.A.
@Mike Wise I would definitely still test redwood bark, but <this description> from CA State Parks is promising:

"Redwoods are naturally resistant to insects, fungi, and fire because they are high in tannin and do not produce resin or pitch."

I've made a mental note not to try pine bark, which does contain resin.
I stand corrected. I thought all conifers produced resins, but then redwoods are a very ancient confer compared to pines, spruce, and cedars.
 

ARK93

Member
Messages
39
Location
East Yorkshire - England - UK
I just wanted to thank those who contributed to this thread. I'm currently preparing to dive back into fish keeping after a long hiatus and this time around I hope to truly embrace the black water / softwater species.

All of the information above has been very useful. I have a Chemistry masters but it still hasn't been easy getting my head around the various methods of achieving the conditions I'll need for some Apisto species and Chocolate Gouramis I hope to keep.

Thanks again!
 

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